can you play any ole song on your webiste? as long as i have purchased something i can play it there, right? it's just in slideshows that i need royalty free music??

I believe that technically the laws state that anything used in order to produce a profit (I believe that would include your website) is copyrighted and cannot be used without permission.

so, people who have songs on their sites are not supposed to unless they have permission?

once i re-read it, i realized that was kind of a dumb question. you just said they did. i guess i am surprised because a lot of folks use songs that i would imagine you would have to get permission for, and it doesn't seem like that would be an easy task. or is it???

Correct.

I've contacted music labels and asked permission to use some music... always denied unless it's for nonprofit. So using popular music (w/o permission and paying the big bucks) is illegal!! Some day a lawyer is going to have a hayday (and pay for 5 kids to go to college) with this!

www.Stock20.com is currently licensing 2 Michelle Featherstone songs which I have purchased to use on my website and in my slideshows. They are really good songs and ones I have heard on the radio. $20 per song for a 1 year license.

That's what I've done too. Although I've only purchased one as yet.

Another option is: http://www.podsafeaudio.com/ but I really struggled to find something decent.

Or, just another idea, if you're on myspace there are LOTS of musicians trying to get some free publicity somehow, perhaps contact a few people on there and see what they have to say.

What music? I don't hear any music...

Anyone know what the legalities of downloading and using music from PureVolume?

I was browsing around and alot seemed like new Indie bands without a label. Some are even downloadable. I've read all the privacy and legal lines but nothing about the "broadcast" of the music for your own purposes.

I am so glad you posted this, becaus eI am aware of the copyright laws and see so many people using the music on their sites and on slideshows and I want to so badly...those songs are what touch our hearts, but I am a strong believer in being moral and doing the right thing (at least I always try) sometimes I don't know any better, but when I do know I have a hard time and can't do it even when everyone else is doing it.

I just wish there was a better option for us! Some stock/roality free is pretty good, but in general . KWIM

I found a AWESOME place a WPPI called
triplescoopmusic. it is all royalty free and has vocals from some awesome artist.
i have one on my website.

I don't believe that I am making money off of the songs played on my website, so I don't see it as wrong.....people who play songs on their website are not immoral, but may interpret the law differently.

Don't really want to get into a debate about interpretation of the law. Just wanted to say that I do not feel that people who play the music on their site are immoral. I want to clairify that I would feel conflicted if I did. That is all....hope I didn't come across the wrong way.

Soap Box! I just posted this a few seconds ago, sorta.....The Law!! Title 17 section 108 - 118. Does not specifically state it is illegal nor does it state that it is legal! Read it I guarantee you will be thouroughly confused!! And then read the Fair Use Act Section 107! Under both areas you have a legal right to do so within reason. You can be a commercial entity or a nonprofit, in a different industry and not defame or hurt the artist(s) business by doing what you do and still be afforded the right to use said work! I'm sorry guys....But do you realize that the law protects the copying/redistribution/labeling/profits and name of the artist? Do you impede any of their rights?

Illegal or legal My personal opinion is either way you are right if your lawyer is good enough.

So it comes down to the artist do they agree with what you're doing......Do they care?

Example we shoot lotsa senior portraits and weddings......I've found some of our images in Japan, Eastern Europe, Canada, and all over our clients websites!! Do I care? No! it happens all the time. All I ask is that we get credit. Its free Marketing let em have it, there way low res anyway! I'm an artist I want exposure!! Copy my images post them somewhere, just give me credit!

Making Money off the songs played on a website......I don't ever remember sitting down with a bride and hearing "wow you have such a great song on your website here's my check!!" I sell my services not the songs that are played.

I know for a FACT that the artists on our site have made more money because of us playing their MUSIC. We send everyone to itunes or Amazon to purchase the music.

However, it is on a website that you use to make money, and that is the measure of the test for the law. If it is on a DVD that you sell to a client or include in a package, it is also against the law. The EFF (http://www.eff.org) has a lot of information out there on this.

The way I look at it is that you would not want someone posting your photos on the internet, or copying & reprinting them, without a license to do so. As photographers, we tend to get really upset if this happens to us. The music industry feels the same way.

There are TONS of independent artists out there that are more than willing to give their music away for you to use for free or for a small fee. Just because they are not the music that is overplayed on the radio does not mean that they are not fabulous songs. I have contacted artists in the past that had songs that I liked and asked permission, and they gave it for free. As was already pointed out, it is free advertising for them. Sometimes the independent artists are listed in Amazon and iTunes too, so you can still give them links show them support.

On an interesting sidenote, I posted on my personal blog an informal survey of what they look for on photography websites, and almost every single person responded - some quite strongly - NO MUSIC! We all do it because we see others do it, but your clients might not appreciate it. Interesting, huh?

Just some food for thought!
Christine

Whether you're making money or not is irrelevant. The copyright law is just that ... the RIGHT of the creator to control COPYING. Whether you make money or not, sell it or not, you cannot copy something that does not belong to you w/out permission. You simply cannot. YOu can justify it however you want, and make excuses however much you want, but the bottom line is that the law says you have to have the permission of the owner to copy, sync, and publish - whether for pay or not.

Photographers are the best at justifying their theft of other people's intellectual copyright while simultaneously posting rants about how they are getting screwed over by clients copying their images. It's really sad.

Karen

I have noticed the same thing. I hate opening a site and have music start automatically. I also appreciate when people warn that slideshows, etc. have music. Probably part of my problem is that I often am playing music on the computer, and then I get competing music. Or two websites with music open.....argh. It sounds terrible!



As a note here - if that were the case, then stores who play music over the loudspeakers as background music wouldn't have any problems. They're not using it to sell products. And yet.......there are copyright issues there.

Music on a site came blasting out of my speakers late last night and almost made me jump out of my skin. Not to mention almost woke up everyone in my house (and neighborhood!).

I say be a rebel and don't use music. Then you don't have to worry about copyright infringement.

Let's all just chill out for a second please.

I want you to take a moment, step back and ask yourself one question:

" Is using an artist's (who's CD you own and who's music you pay for) song on your website an infringement of copyright? " I do not believe it is. Nor do I feel the need to give excuses.

I do not sell anything with copyrighted music on it. If nothing else, I HELP the artists that are on my website because I constantly have people telling me they downloaded the songs off iTunes after hearing them on my website.

To be honest, I think a lot of folks get extremely huffy and crazy about this question because you have a personal conviction about it and it just makes you SOO mad that everyone else does not see it the way you do. Get over it. If the truth is that it really is wrong to use music on your website, then what do you have to freak out about? - you've done the right thing!

Either way, the truth is, the law is not clear. You can interpret it your way and I can interpret it mine . . . there is no black and white on this issue, but I acknowledge that there is on many other issues. Trust me . . . I live most of my life with an understanding that there IS a clear right and a clear wrong - however, there are many things (I believe including MUCH more serious matters) for which you simply must make a judgement call based on your knowledge, undestanding, and experience. And you have to acknowledge that you MAY NOT BE RIGHT but that you are responsible for your decisions either way.

It's never necessairy to insult other people into seeing things your way - it's a weak and immature way to argue.

That's still justification. You don't have to sell the music to be in violation.

Read this FAQ by BMI about music licensing:
http://www.bmi.com/licensing/entry/C1289

Then read this article by the National Music Publishing Association:
http://www.nmpa.org/music101/copyrights.asp


Read ASCAPs (American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers) web licensing page:
http://www.ascap.com/weblicense/

See the RIAA (Recording Industry Assoc of America) FAQ about webcasting here:
http://www.riaa.com/issues/music/webcasting.asp

Then check out the information from the Harry Fox agency about mechanical and sync licensing:
http://www.harryfox.com/public/licenseeServices.jsp

Look, don't take my word for it. If you REALLY want to do the right thing (or you REALLY think you're right and want to prove me wrong), call the company that publishes the music you use and ask? Pull out the CD, look in the documentation, find the name of the recording company, call them and ask them.

I challenge anyone who says "I'm doing the artist a favor" or "I feel that I'm in the right" to do just that. Call and *ask*.

I will bet money that no one will actually be told they have permission and will, instead be told that they have to have a sync license to show someone else's music with their own images. Instead of "feeling" one way or another about it - why not go to the source and get the facts.

Karen

the lawyer in me loves this issue! it is arguable and it is winable. interpretation is waht the legal system is based on. and what so many (or all) lawsuits base their arguments on.

Guys,
It's not worth the argument! We take copyright law seriously, or want others to with regard to our photos. I feel it is only ethical to use royalty free music in my work that I sell. I think it is nearly the same thing as someone going to WalMart and copying your images; even if they 'aren't making any money from it.' They are taking money away from you. That's how I see it. Get creative. Talk to friends, scour the web. I like stock.20 and have many good songs from them. I also enjoy the Music Bakery. I just don't think it is ethical to use another artists work without giving them their just due. Sorry to stir up a big mess, I was just looking for some honest insight from this forum. The bottom line is, we each make our own decisions. I'm not telling you how to run your business.

TB

Three ways I can see to look at this:

1) COPYRIGHT LAW: When you purchase a song/CD, you only purchase a license to use it for your own personal use. You aren't supposed to share it with other people (radio/internet, loudspeaker, or even learn and perform it for others to hear). You need a license to do those things. Sometimes you even need permission from multiple sources, not just BMI, ASCAP, etc. Of course, people play and perform other people's music all the time without regard to this.

2) COPYRIGHT LAW & FAIR USE: For informational and educational purposes, you can use material under copyright without getting a license or permission from the copyright holder. Here's where interpretations of the law really come into play.

3) CONSIDERATION FOR THE ARTIST: This isn't a legal term, the way I'm using it. It's just the idea that despite what might be decided in a courtroom, you either care, or don't care, about what the artist wants. You might ask permission, you might not.

I know MANY people in the music business. Trust me, they don't take this lightly -- indie or major. Some might be happy to let you use their work and just get a little credit. Some want money. But everyone wants to be asked permission, at least.

What you do with other people's work is between you and them. I'm really not into judging things like that. But I do think it's stupid that the music industry started busting kids for downloading mp3s without purchasing the songs. Just think how they feel about people using them on commercial sites without permission.

Again, I'm not judging, just wanting to provide a little extra perspective.

i was waiting for someone to say it.

That is a false assumption. Any type of music other than royalty free music has to be paid for and a individual liscense has to be obtained.

So does this mean that when a bride hires a DJ and he/she plays others music at the event that the DJ is breaking copyright since obviously they don't own rights to all those songs to be playing *with their business*?

I'm just curious. =)

I personally turn the music off when I get to a site... i say no music - or if you want music use royalty free music / get permission.

It's the responsibility of the venue (bar, restaraunt, conference hall) to secure an ASCAP license for music played on their premisis, not the DJ.

That being said, a mobile DJ does not need a license for a private party, such as a wedding, where the general public is not permitted and the gathering is not promoted (e.g. a rave). Private parties are not considered a "public performance." The DJ must have legally purchased recordings of the music, though.

I chose to not have music on my site because I first saw it as a gray area when it comes to the whole copyright.....but then maybe it isn't all that gray.

If a client purchases a picture- lets say a 11X14 (so not being totally cheap with buying just a 5X7) and then scans the picture. She wants to put together scrapbooks for her family members and prints a bunch of 5X7's to use in her scrapbooks. She isn't selling them, right? So- this shouldn't be a problem- right?

The point is- legal or illegal- we are all trying to make a living with our art whether it be music or photography or whatever. When you take something from someone that you *could* or *should* be paying them for- it is unfair.

Oh, just wondering. Thanks!!

Yes, it really is a problem, because copyright law isn't about whether or not the images (or songs) are sold. Copyright law is, at it's most basic, about the *right* of the owner to control the copying of his or her work. Very simple .. copy ... right. So if I make a bunch of copies of your image and give it to my family, I'm ( a ) making copies of your work w/out your permission and ( b ) depriving you of the income that you would have earned if I had bought those 5x7s from you. Big, big problem.


Amen to that!

K.

Most major stores pay to play music over their speakers, either their corporate pays and they send the feed, or the individual store/restaraunt pays for a music service. The copyright act also allows smaller venues with less than a certain number of people and a certain number of speakers to play a radio station (or TV's under a certain size for TV) without permission from the music or radio people.

I haven't read this whole thread but you should totally check out triplescoopmusic.com. You can buy music there that you can use legally and there's some that's really cool. I like real music with good lyrics withreal instruments...not electronic so it's perfect. It's a little expensive but worth it to be legal.

There are a lot of artists on GarageBand that are looking for ways to get known. A lot of their songs are awesome. We've started using them on our sldieshows and the comments we get are that people like to hear songs that arents the overplayed ones on the radio.

Many of their songs are there for free downloads.

Ok, I feel like I am playing devils advocate with this post. Please know I mean no offense to anyone. These are my own thoughts and questions as I have been struggling through on this issue.

The first question that comes to my mind is this: How would I respond if I took "Erika's" photos and she purchased 10 - 13 images from me and then posted them on a website promoting something she does without consent? Maybe she gave me a tagline, maybe not. How would I respond/feel? Would I send a letter telling her that the images she posted are copyrighted and to take them down? Would I ask her for compensation or acknowlegement because they are copyrighted to me?

If the shoe was on the other foot how would I handle it as photographer?

We expect our clients to display their original images either in their homes, offices, etc. If they want to post the images on a website don't we expect our clients to ask for permission. Many of us have moved to digital proofs and put other safeguards in place to protect our images from being copied.

Are we setting the standard for copyright protection by our justifications? Is it fair for us to expect our images to not be copied but then not hold the same standard for other's work?

I agree we each have to make this decision for our business. As for myself, I choose to add music to my site. I found a local musician who does wonderful work and asked him if I could use his music this way. It was not a problem. Now when I approach the issue of copyright with my clients I feel I can stand a little firmer knowing I respected another artist's copyrighted work.

Thanks for the great discussion on this topic. It really helped me to decided how to handle the web side of my business. You guys are awesome!!

I wonder if you would feel the same way if a music comapny or band used your images on their website or in a TV commercial without permission?

I'm paying BMI an annual fee to use the song by Rascal Flatts on my website. I started a discussion on this a while back.

Old Thread

Hope this helps

I believe that the BMI license only covers the composition, not the actual sound recording. BMI pays royalies to songwriters and composers, not musicians. If you want to sing or play any of their songs yourself (or hire a local garage band) then you're covered.

An additional "Digital Performance" License is necessary for the actual sound recording itself as done by popular musicians. This license is the one that's proving difficult to obtain.

It's interesting that BMI is very careful to NOT point out that a BMI license is only part of what's necessary. They always say you then have a right to play a "musical composition" and there's only one place (noted below) on their site where they discern between a "musical compostion" and a "sound recording." I guess they want to collect the maximum amount of royalties for their songwrites and to advertize the fact that a BMI license isn't truly useful for what 99% of website owners want it for is counterproductive.


This is from the "Types of Copyrights" page on BMI.

This is so confusing. I feel like I need to get a lawyer to tell me what I can do with the $300 annual license I purchased from BMI.

So if you are correct (and I'm not certain you are) then I am paying BMI for the right to say sing the song myself publicly. (Ha! Ha!) Sorry I just had this mental image

or Pay someone to sing it for me....

Whatever you paid BMI, also does not give you the right to play the music in conjunction with your images. To play music as part of an audio-visual presentation (on the web, on a CD, whatever) you need a sync license ... which is different from a performance license. And sync licenses must, for hte most part, be obtained directly from the publisher of the music, rather than a licensing agency.

Karen

That might depend, as they're coming up with new names for things, and differentiating more closely, but I'm fairly sure that the BMI license doesn't cover web use, though I am not 100% sure. ASCAP has specific web licenses, and it doesn't matter if they're going with pictures - the real "sticking point" it seems is whether users of your site can choose the music that is playing or not (the minimum yearly fee is $288, and may go up depending on your site's revenue and pageclicks, from what I can tell). At least one of the companies has something it calls a "mechanical" license which could potentially be used for a website...

Which in the end means it's better to either:

1. Have no music on your website. [my vote]
2. Use royalty-free music.
3. Use music from a friend or local musician's catalog with permission.

Mine would sound like Steve Martin's "I'm in the Mood for Love"



I wore out that LP. Now I'm showing my age

Yeah. I stopped using music on my site because I don't think people appreciate it when it automatically starts playing. And if you're having a new window open up with music or video or something, the sounds play simultaneously - a real annoying thing.

But, I've decided to either ask musicians directly for their permission to use their songs, or just create my own music via some music software. That's worked out pretty well so far for some of the things I've done.

Man, this whole licensing thing IS confusing.

My web designer put some music on my site for a few of my porfolio pages. I hadn't thought about it or asked about it. But I am designing a new site and I have commissioned two local artists to do some specific, exclusive music for me to use for my website, slideshows and another promotional material. They are stoked to get the work and I am totally stoked to support them - get great music!

Someone said they don't make money by having music on there site. Then why is it there? Can you imagine if you saw a CD cover with a photo of yours, without permission. Cover art helps sell discs and music on a website can enhance the sale of our product.

Free the Music! I hate record companies and marketing firms getting their cut BEFORE the musicians and people who actually MAKE the music get theirs. Find good local musicians, or use acts that you can pay DIRECTLY to use their music. Screw the music companies!

I LOVE music and play as well but I can't stand all the middlemen. With the ability today to record your own album and do online marketing and sales all from your own little old computer, there really isn't the need for the middleman anymore. That's why they are trying to squeeze every last drop of profit from wherever they can. They know their gravy train is near the end. I really hope this is the way of the future where you will buy songs and albums directly from the musicians themselves.

...now if we could only eliminate Ticketmaster!!!!

1. Nothing makes me close a website faster than autoplaying music. 

2. I find it a bit unsettling that on a forum dedicated to artists we are debating whether it's ok for us to violate another artist's copyright. I don't have to make a list of the reasons why, we all know them; we fight for them continuously in our own line of work. Remember the golden rule that we all learned when we were 5? Treat others as we wish to be treated, right?

ok. so. when a restaurant owner buys pieces of my fine art - hangs it in his restaurant to make his restaurant more appealing and attractive to possible clients - does this mean i deserve a kick back on every meal he serves/sales?

No, because you were already paid for your work at a rate that you set.

In this particular case did/would you charge a different price for art that is displayed in a corporate or retail location versus a private home?

It's a good question/hypothetical, Tami.