After watching Gary's DVDs I was pretty excited, and it seems that his method would work very well. However, I'm not a sales person, I'm more of an artist

I don't want this to turn into a Gary Fong bashing thread, but I would love to hear from people who switched to his method, and your results.

Thanks,

Toine

I recently saw the DVD set an am also interested. Tell us your success (or not) stories!

-TM

imho, you need to watch the dvd's at least 10 times to really grasp what gary is saying.

and you need to be patient to see the results. the method can be applied to almost ANY art, if you really understand what the method is. i think gary's method is misunderstood because of the HORRIBLE title of the dvd's and the awful term 'upsell'.

my studio has created a fabulous method, in part due to gary, in part due to our skill and observation, and in part due to dumb luck. most importantly, my clients are getting a superb product and we strive to exceed their expectations.

you MUST be willing to take off that 'artist hat' and think like a business person.

i am not a sales person. i am, however an artist in a SERVICE industry.


i have a feeling i'll be revisiting this thread.

Robin, +1 on all you wrote.

I am just learning to incorporate the methods on Gary's DVD, well, more the revised version that Bellissima has so successfully put into practice. Robin's results are more than enough evidence that this method does, in fact, produce rewarding results.

I am so fortunate to be learning under her tutelage ... and I'm excited to see the results in my own business.

What adjustments did you make, if I may ask? And, why (more important question, probably)

Thanks,

T

Well, I guess I need to watch it 9 more times, but I implemented it immediately and my first album I made an additional $6k on top of the flat-rate package they had ordered.

I posted a long detailed description of it somewhere... In any event, the methodology is solid if you know how to set and manage client expectations.

K

+1

Essential for the success of the method and the total satisfaction of your client.

I've watched the DVD's and am really excited to implement it, at least on some level. Since I am brand new to my new area, I can start out with the services that I want to offer, and pretty much be known from the get go as a person who makes sure that each and every client ends up with an album.

I'm also really weary of the word "upsell" and, in fact, before I watched the DVD's, I thought Gary Fong's methods were horrible (see how I judge before I actually watched them? ) But since watching them, I think his methods make a lot of sense. I do, in fact, want every one of my clients to have an album. I think pre-design is genius and plan to implement it immediately. I'm not sure how much to try and "upsell", because I do think that people can see through it on some level. I also want to treat people the way that I would want to be treated if I were in their shoes. I would hate to be shown a $6000 album when I had budgeted for $2000. So...somewhere in there, there must be a meeting point between being "nice" and being a "business person".

Sorry for the ramble there. My point: I have watched the DVDs and I do plan to use the methods!

Ksenia

Ksenia, that's where the critical part of managing their expectations comes in. I'm no authority on the subject (yet), and I'm absorbing everything that Robin is tossing at me, but it is vitally important to learn how to NOT set expectations of a $2000 album from the start.

I am now working on Robin's plan to introduce my past clients to a pre-design. Some of you might remember her post months back about the album party she hosted, and what a wild success it was. I'm hoping for a similar result, since many of my former couples did not have a pre-design (it wasn't included in the past) nor did they purchase an album.

K -

a 6K upsell sounds really great, but what was the album $$ amount they prepaid? Just to get a grasp on how big a jump it was

Also, I am worried that his method works well for affluent customers, but not for the more budget oriented ones.

T

I agree that you have to watch it a couple of times and it took me a couple of times to get right.

It's definitely about communication and managing expectation.

As I mentioned in another thread, I just up-sold a couple from their original package of $3750 by an additional $1875.

Sean

you have got to get your mind off the big album, big sale and big money. it is NOT about creating some big profit item. for me, it's NOT about beating someone over the head, or designing the biggest most expensive thing i can come up with. and it's not about speed. (and i do NOT see gary's method this way - which is why i've been able to make it my own method - after watching the dvd's at least 20 times - and that is NO exaggeration.)

this IS about raving clients. it's about creating a family heirloom... a custom, handcrafted, beautiful family heirloom. it's about beautiful photographs and and an artistic perspective (mine). it's about showing someone something that they want, and providing exceptional service. it's about taking my time to chose the best images and reinforce trust with my client. it's about making them feel good about cutting a book down, if they want to, or if they don't love every page or every image, or if it's not in their budget. it's about upgrading them to a 12x12 from a 10x10 if that's what they really want (and doing it at no extra charge) in a way that you are BOTH benefitting. it's about finding a beautiful, less expensive option for them, if they need one - reinforcing my goal of providing them with a family heirloom that they love. managing expectations. communicating what can and can't be done. UNDERSTANDING what the CLIENT wants. (i could go on and on) and making it really easy for your client to give you their money. and patience and time.


in a nutshell, THAT is what i do differently. (yikes - that's a big nut)

btw, my AVERAGE album sale is $4737.

I must live in the wrong part of the country. I can hardly get people to pay a few hundred dollars for an album. I can't even imagine charging over $1k for an album! I don't offer really high end albums yet because of the lack of alubm interest from my clients in general.

our first album sale was to a couple who didn't want an album, and paid $2850 for their coverage only, and were interested in prints. using gary's ideas and implenting them with my own method, their album was a 2 volume $6000 set. but, gary gets the credit for that one.

sometime people don't even know what they want, until they want it.
and this whole thing could be a full day workshop.

WOW! Almost $9K for the package and album??? I'd be hard pressed to find anyone in NH to pay that price tag.

Hi Robin,

What is the benefit of giving them the free upgrade?

-Ben

I bet that is what Robin and so many others before her said when they first started looking at the market they are in. But the proof is in the pudding (for lack of better phrase), you can do it!

Well, Matt, then you won't find them, because you have already established the limitation. You have already decided for your couples that, basically, you don't want their money. Is NH a third world state or something? Are folks living on rice and beans?

Well I know that from my experience it does work like Gary says. His 1/3 rule is what I have really noticed lately. That is: 1/3 of your clients will love what you created and not change a thing, 1/3 will change just a few pages, and the last 1/3 will tear it all apart and totally recreated something. Now the last part I have only had just a few times so far.... but that really was a lot of work redoing everything. (hope I don't get anymore like that! ha ha) I probably wouldn't even have the last 1/3 if I were a better album designer. That's one thing that I really need to improve on. Not exactly a graphic designer like other folks on here. I do have it in my contract that the client will get two edit sessions with me as part of their package. After that it's $250 each time they want to make corrections. This helps to cut down on the bridezilla who can't make up her mind on what she wants in her album. If you don't do this, you will end up spending hours on end trying to make this person happy. I have sold some bigger albums, but not as big as Mr. Swan (graphic designer) has indicated yet...........

Big props to Robin on this. I have read many of her posts on album stuff. You rock Bellissima! I even have some old prints outs that I made before the Great Crash of OSP on her replies! ha ha!

-RK

As a matter of fact...I did just have rice for lunch. LOL. I've done 26 weddings in the last four years. Out of all those weddings, I've only done two albums. I don't incude albums in my pricing, and maybe that is where I've gone wrong. I'm slowly raising my pricing and finding that I'm booking more weddings each year. I have 12 for 2007. Maybe I'll get more album requests as I move into the next client/price bracket. My packages range from $1,200-$2,000. I'm getting there slowly but surely. I don't want to limit my client's spending...but $6K for an album just sounds riduculous to me. Perhaps it is because I could never afford that personally.




You may be right. It never hurts to try I guess. It just makes me nervous charging so much money for a product.

YOU are not affording it.

i couldn't afford my albums. my clients are usually much more financially successful than me. i couldn't afford a lot of what they afford.

i look around at the wedding - the location, the flowers, the dress, the gifts, all the beautiful 'stuff' and i feel i OWE it to my client to give them the most beautiful option i can come up with. they will tell me if it's too much. they will tell me if it's not in their budget. they will tell me if they don't want it. what they WON'T do is say - "um... this is great! i'd like to pay you double for it."

my pricing is based on hard numbers and math, not some random price.

it's all in how you approach it. AGAIN... this is NOT about selling a big, expensive album.

it's creating a custom, family heirloom. the last album i posted for a client review, was a 30 page (cut down and redesigned from 36 pages) $1800 book. (notice how my $75/page doesn't add up right?) the important thing was listening to my client, and preparing them for our process. i KNEW they had a small budget. i knew the BRIDE wanted an album - the groom didn't really care so much. he liked it, once he saw it, and almost got excited about it as it was. he had a budget, and was NOT giving in. their budget was $800. we don't even have an option at $800. this couple had paid $1600 for our coverage (a year and a half ago). they just bought a home. but, i wanted them to have an album - AND i wanted them to be THRILLED... especially because i am shooting her bridesmaid's wedding soon, and she will be there and so will lots of other people. so we negotiated. i worked harder on this book than any other cutting it down and making it the best i could within the limits. it's the least expensive book we've done. and the most work.

You should be adding beans to that rice, Matt ... it makes for a complete protein meal!

I spent the last two years in my wedding biz doing exactly what you are doing ... placing limitations on both my clients spending and my potential. Between Gary's method and Robin's incredible support and help, I have completely changed the way I do business. I'm now looking forward to, actually expecting, greater success from here on out.

really?

the client came to review their album and proofs and order prints and their album and go over everything. we actually used their wedding as our 12x12 zookbook sample. so thery were looking at thier wedding pics and wanted that book. the price of the 10x10 that they wanted was $5550, the additional prints they wanted to order were several hundred dollars. normally we surprise and thank our clients somehow. we decided to upgrade their book to the 12x12 that they really wanted. the invoice will show the 12x12 price, a studio courtesy (discount) and the final balance. we also will give them a nice break on their prints as a surprise. how happy do you think they are to be getting what they REALLY want? and because my pricing is based on real numbers, i know how far i can stretch that upgrade.

btw - they are expecting their first baby next month - 10 months after the wedding - and they want bambino pics. i will hook them up.


not everyone wants a book.
but i will make every effort to make sure it's an option and show them what i have in mind. and they don't have to do it now. they can take all the time they want.

I guess my problem right now is that many of my clients are like me with regards to financial status. I was pleased at the begining of the year, after I raised my pricing, that I had two (booked) clients tell me that they were glad to find me since they were on a tight budget. That told me right there that I can continue raising my pricing without being worried about business declining.

My other issue is my confindence in album designing. I don't feel that confident in that area yet...so I don't feel I can charge a lot.

Thanks for your posts...they have been very helpful for me! I REALLY appreciate it!!!



I acutally had chicken with my rice...does that put me in another tax bracket?

Thanks for your input...it helps give me confidence!

Bellissima,

I really like your approach, and I hope to be able to apply some of that customer service to my customers.

I like how you don't have a timeline, which goes against Gary's 60 day rule.

Toine

never decide how much someone else wants to afford. people are on a 'budget' until they see something they want. then the budget goes out the window and they will find a way to what they want. have you never done this yourself?

i'll try again. this is NOT about price/money. it's about showing them the most beautiful thing you can. MAKE SURE YOU MANAGE THE EXPECTATIONS OF YOUR CLIENTS. tell them how your process works. if it's different than other photogs, you will need to tell them over and over.

as far as designing... there is nothing wrong with:

choosing your favorite 30-50 images, and showing them one to a page in a matted style
a simple layout, one to a page with a sloppy border
giving them different price options with different quality/style choices (not too many)

NEVER, i repeat NEVER price your stuff because of what others charge. price your work based on what you KNOW it is going to cost you.

your product has the value you give it - do not give things away for nothing or it has no value.

wow. this could be a day-long workshop.

Thanks again Robin! I'm so glad that I found out about OSP a month ago. I've already learned a ton from people here!

Note to self...it's not about price/money....it's not about price/money....it's not about price/money....it's not about price/money....it's not about price/money....

So many clients want the coffee table book style albums. That makes it a bit tougher if I don't want to spend a fortune to outsource that process. I'm confident in making traditiona matted print albums. It's these digital style albums that scare me.

Robin, you crack me up!!

Get on it!!! Your last workshop was outstanding.

you can make a beautiful coffee table album with single image on a black background. keep it very simple and clean looking. talk to your client about what they want. grab 10 images from any wedding and show yourself that you can lay out a simple book. this will take very little time. keep the images a consistent size - add a border, but keep it consistent, too. that would be beautiful! figure out your time and cost and price it accordingly. then show your client.

you have to walk before you can run. selling a $xxxx book to someone who doesn't expect to see anything is nearly impossible. but selling a $300 or $500 or $800 book to someone who is excited to see what you did for them is completely different.





you crack me up.

if there is interest, it's a done deal. you know how i love this album stuff!

Matt,
I know exactly what you are saying, I live just a little bit north from you and I find this part of the country to be very "meat and potatos" type of people. By that I mean that their feeling is why should I pay $35 on a filet mignon at the local bistro when I can have a steak, salad and desert at Bonanza for $7.95. trust me, I would love to raise prices myself, and I am currently priced a little higher than you are but not by much and it's hard to get business.

The funny part is that they contact me because they love my work, they have seen my albums, slide show etc and they just can't beleive how great the pictures look and how stylish the albums are and I can go on and on with the compliments. As soon as they see the price list, they start thinking about that steak at Bonanza!
Now if you do some research, you will find that Maine is one of the highest state with millionaires, but I guess they are that way because the money stays in their pockets.

Just my observation also.
Bernard

Thanks again Robin! I've created one coffee table book using some software from Creative Memories. I was really pleased with it. I just need to spend more time playing in Photoshop to gain confidence in my own designing. (Anyone got extra free time they would like to donate? LOL) I'd like to create an Asuka book next.

Thanks again...you RAWK!



Sorry Toine...I did not intend to hijack your thread. Back to discussing Gary's DVD now...

I'm in Toronto Canada and really not even in the wedding photography business but would probably drive/fly quite a distance to learn more from you Robin. You have some great insights that don't just apply to the wedding industry.

Plus it sounds like you are just a phenominal person!

Cheers to you!
trevor.

yikes! i really didn't mean to side track, just give a different perspective on gary's words. i see gary's message as being 'create really happy clients', NOT sell expensive albums. but, you might have to watch then several times to really get what he's saying - imho.






you're a doll.
thanks, trevor.

we'll have to see what works out best for people.

Hi Robin,

Can you be a little more specific about how you manage their expectations? In other words, you don't tell them that (per Fong) the album tends to be about 3x more than the deposit you received at the beginning, do you?

-TM



That's nice. It sounds like your philosophy is to charge x + 10%, so you can give folks a "surprise" or "gift" at the end which generates a positive feeling, while still keeping the price at x.



Do you have the Fong "buy it in 30 days and get 10% off" or similar incentive to get the potato out the door before it cools?

It sounds to me like you're focusing as much on the "get people to rave" as you are on the upsell. I suspect that's pretty critical. One of the things I've been wondering is how the upsell works when client #100 knows (through word of mouth) that the last 10 clients ended up spending way more than their deposit. I guess in their mind they may think they'll "stick to thier guns" until they see what an awesome album you've put together for them.

I'd love to hear how your method differs from what Gary talks about on the DVD.

Thanks for all the great info Robin!

-TM

i may or may not receive a deposit. my clients are expecting to see a very large design.


i don't want to jack this tread any more - sorry about that.

my point is that i see gary's method as first and foremost creating RAVINGLY HAPPY CLIENTS, not getting rich - ugh. i hate that title. the money comes after you meet the clients' very high expectations. that is what my 'method' focuses on - exceeding high expectations.

On the contrary, I think what we're talking about is exactly what this thread is about. Gary's method has worked for you, and I for one would like to know how what you're doing is the same or differs from his method. I'd love to hear your thoughts on my questions above.

-TM

Tzalmaves is right -

This is exactly what I Was hoping from this thread. Your experiences with the Gary Fong method, and any alterations/adjustments you made

Please keep it coming.

I'm new to this board, but I'm very pleased with the quality of posts!! I think I'm sticking around

T

I'll have to pick up Gary Fong's DVD's now. No, scratch that....I'll wait for Robin's DVD

Seriously, don't stop posting Robin - - you're answering the OP's questions to the "T" and helping out a lot of us along the way. It is very much appreciated. It took me longer than usual to read through everything posted so far because I really wanted to absorb every word. Really terrific advice here! I too, want my clients to have the best, and wonderful memories, and a great exprience with me. This is exactly the direction I've been taking with my new little biz and LOVE to get this kind of wonderful, experience-based information.

Thanks again!!!

Hi Janae,

The first thing you'll get from Gary is stop giving out proofs and the images on DVD. I checked out your site - you've got a great portfolio going!

Get the DVD set and, like Robin says, watch it several times.

-TM

Hey Tzal - just wanted to mention (with a smile ) that there are some areas in the country where the giving out of DVD/CD of all images is pretty much necessairy. For example, in Austin, pretty much everyone (from the worst to the absolute best) includes the DVD/CD in their packages. However, I have recently learned that doing so does not stop couples from wanting you to design an album for them - they don't really have time and they know YOU are the expert. Just a little info!

Same here! It kills me when I think about it how we were limiting the amount our clients might have spent. I wish I had done a much better job of allowing them to spend more.

+1 to Robin's rave comments. I think this is the point exactly. Obviously, everything in your business, from the e-mails you send them, to your website, to the way you interact with them and their families at the wedding, to the thank you notes, and of course the album designs should all contribute to the clients WANTING to rave about you.

It's about putting systems in place in your business that will allow for this to naturally happen. This system (when it comes to albums) definetly involves managing client's expectations.

Of course, it doesn't hurt to have killer album designs like Robin. That always helps things along!

I will be at the workshop Robin, and eager to meet and learn from you.

I saw Fong speak about just this.

It was difficult at first. The key is to not ever have the client have an expectation of x number of pages for an album size. I think gary had a studio credit built into his packages. So that way when he designed a 40 page album that was going to cost them 6k, they already had 2k built into their package, but they never had a 20 page album mindset.

If I remember correctly. But he spoke about alot of other stuff too...


Around here in NH, if someone gets 20 pages in their head, its tough to "upsell" them 25 pages. I've done almost everytime, but its no fun.

But if they have no size set, then its easier.

I have a tough time getting the album designed ASAP. If I could do that I think the impact would be greater. I done a few things from his seminars, but not everything.

Jeff