So a local photographer calls me yesterday and in my mind was kinda rude. He tells me that my pricing is too low and that I am hurting myself and other photographers in the area.

A little back ground story here. Last year my pricing was $1500 and booked 10 weddings. For this year I raised my pricing some to $1800. Not too much of a raise. Well the problem was that I have only booked 1 wedding. I have had lots of enqueries but just no bookings. So I lowered my prices to $1200 just to get my name out there more and to just shoot more. This is my 3rd year in business.

So he calls me out of the blue and is telling me my prices are too low. And I am shooting myself in the foot. He just comes off very rude. I was very blunt with him and told him the truth about my now 2 bookings and how I did have a higher price and how it just didn't work. He did seem to go easier after I told him everything.

Then he tells me how he can not refer weddings to me because my prices are too low. By the way I have never asked him to refer weddingsto me. Does that make sense? He says that he can only refer weddings to $2000 photographers because he is a $2000 photographer. Do others do this? It felt like he was protecting his turf or didn't want to lose brides to me.

He told me other stuff about business that I agreed with. Percieved value. And stuff like that. He also invited to his studio to talk more. So in the end he was trying to be helpful. But his path to that point was not good. Maybe he started to feel bad for me. He stated that the area has a hand full of good photographers and they are all at $2000 and then there are the $1000 photographers that are not very good. And that I was putting myself in the $1000 catagory. He did say my images were good.

So I don't know what to think of him. I don't think I have any questions on all of this, just needed to get it off of my chest.

Keith

While he may have come across as rude, I agree with his message.

Without knowing your packages and business expenses, I can’t really say if your prices are too low, but my assumption is that you are under priced.

Referring weddings between equally priced photographers is a lot easier than referring clients at different price ranges. Matt Antonino and I are similarly priced and in the same general region but he has not booked one wedding that I have sent to him and I have not booked one wedding that he has sent to me. It seems like the $1,500 more that I charge is enough to dissuade people.

Well… since you aren’t really booking weddings, I don’t think he has to worry about losing brides to you

I would think highly of him, he seems like his is trying to help himself, you and the local market. Try to learn what you can to start booking brides, it is usually just a few things that need to be fixed to make big changes happen. Read one of my favorite books, The Tipping Point, to see what I mean .

I have two other photog. in my area and when one gets an enquirie for a date he is booked he asks the bride to forward it to a college with the same pricing structure and the same working style.

Works perfect for us.

Someone else in your area took the time and effort to call you, talk to you about your pricing, try to help you, and so help the industry - and you find that rude?

Hm. How are you setting your prices? Are you just picking numbers out of thin air? Have you run any numbers to know your costs?

Karen

I frankly find it a little rude. I agree with Keith that his path to his point was WAY off base. I would be offended by that phone call. I have been contacted by and have contacted myself other photographers. I'm sure somewhere lurking in the back of our minds we all wanted to question the pricing strategies eventually, but first off have lunch for goodness sake! Get to know someone who you want to do business with. I mean he is Keith's competition to a degree. What would you do if you ran a successful taco stand, and the bistro up the street called you to tell you to raise your prices? That is probably not the best analogy...Keith...you are not the taco stand...just making a point. lol.

There is a photographer near my area that constantly tells me to raise my prices...but her motives are a bit questionable sometimes because actually we are in the same price range. She has never wanted to do lunch and talk strategy, so frankly, the calls and e-mails are kind of annoying. I have tried to get together with her a few times to no avail. After not hearing from her for months and months, she e-mails me a one liner after seeing my work in a high end magazine: "you need to raise your prices." No hello, no how's it going etc. Building a bridge, she is not.

It's all in the approach baby. The message is still a bit questionable too IMHO--everyone has to price themselves the way have to. I may not agree with it, he obviously does not, but I'm not paying your bills either.

Geneve

while his method of delivery may have been less than cordial, try to look past that.

you had a well established competitor call you, compliment your images, and more or less ask you to raise your prices so that he can refer weddings to you. this might be the break you need!

if you aren't booking at current price, and the market is as this guy describes, then it makes sense. you're too cheap for clients looking for a good photog. you're too expensive for clients looking for a cheap photog. i say, raise prices, and send him a thank you note a a stack of business cards.

even if he only sends you 1 or 2 referralls that work out, you're already better off than what you're doing now, right?

and years from now when you're good buddies, you can tell him the story of how he came off as a jerk at first, lol.

WJS.

Ignore me... I think Jillian made some great points.

However the guy came off at the start, he invited you to discuss things further... I'd be there in a heartbeat because there's always something to learn from others whether it's something you should do or you shouldn't do.

Separate the message from the messenger...and then go from there

Exactly what I thought. Except for what I gather was a rather abrupt introduction to the subject, he told you all the things I've been reading on this forum.

After you catch your breath, give him a call and set up a time to visit his studio and chat. Then if you still don't like what he has to say, just drop the whole thing. But obviously he is impressed with your work and if he has more experience you may be able to learn more about the business end from him.

Yeah! That's what I was trying to say!

Call him up and take him to lunch dude. Sounds like he wants to help you.

Some people have natural diplomacy and tact....a generally kind demeanor....a real way with words.
Others have no such gifts, and blunder through life unintentionally trodding on peoples toes.

Sounds like this guy falls into the second category. I think you should overlook the 'delivery' and get to the heart of his intention. Meet with him...try to work out his true motives, then work out what's in it for you and your business.

You never know....it could be a turning point, not to mention a potential new friendship/collaberation. Even if your first instincts turn out to be right....what have you got to lose?

I say GO FOR IT... (I would in your situation)

Annie

keith...better than hearing it the way I did.

I booked a wedding eons ahead of the date and I was soooooooooooooo soooooooooo cheap even by your above standards. So months later when its time to do the bridal session, I had essentially doubled my prices by then. At the end of the session, my very matter-of-fact bride is chimping through her images we just captured and says the following. I think I will remember it for the rest of my life:

"so I see you figured out you were good." I give her a confused look. "You raised your prices. They were too cheap. You are still too cheap. Raise your prices. You are better than your prices say. I budgeted $4000 for photography and I almost didn't call because your prices were so low, but I picked you because of your work. Go up again. You deserve to"

As much of a compliment as it was intended to be, it really blew to know that she would have paid me 5X what I charged her.

If you aren't comfortable going up on your rates, add products to your packages. Then add a little foot note that says all packages are customizable.

I do plan on taking him up on his offer on meeting him at his studio. Maybe he will sound better in person.

On the subject of pricing, I thought it was better to not do what your competitors are doing and price yourself. Just a thought.

I have been thinking about why I have not been booking many weddings. I have a feeling it might be the style of photography I do which is basicly photojournalistic. This photographer that I have been talking about is a bit more traditional. He also told me of another photographer in town that is in the $2000 dollar price range. I know who this person is. He is also a DJ and will do both at your wedding. He has 15 booked for around 2000 and his pictures are horrable. I have a hard time saying that because I am not a negitive person like that but they are that bad. It makes me sick to think he is doing that good. Do I sound jealous? He is also more traditional. I guess I need to change my style some and include more portraits and selective color.

And thanks for all the replies. I have lots to think about.

Thank you to the OSP.

OH NONONONONONO! Don't change your style. Adapt it. Don't just do something because persons a & b seem to be booking more. I promise you, no matter where you live, there IS A MARKET for your style and your price range.

Don't worry. I'm not really going to change my style. I was tring to be funny. See I'm laughing at myself.

But maybe I need to show more portraits on my website for instance. And spend more time at weddings doing formals. Relaxed formals. I wouldn't even know how to be a traditional wedding photographer.

I dealt with the same thing man. I was so mad that others who I though were really not good at all were booking a lot more dates than me. Your really just have to get over that dude. It has nothing to do with you. You have to find out who your market is and go after it.

Also, speak it into being and it will be man.

While I would not say your prices are "cheap", he does have a point. I get calls from brides who want to spend "...around $500.00". Sometimes I actually do laugh over the phone...THAT is cheap. More often than not they have not been to ANYONE's website.

The perceived value is very important, BUT if the quality of the work is not at a level that can justify a high(er) price, you won't get any bookings. It is all relative, but to the bride, not you. But then I am amazed at what quality some brides get in this area for the amount of money they spend. You would be surprised how many photographers do not retouch or enhance photos at all. Straight out of the camera to print. Yuk.

Sometimes brides get brain-damaged by low pricing and do not compare anything (quality & pricing) with other studios. They come away thinking their pictures are great.

His initial approach may have been an issue, perhaps his intent was ... well ... more or less OK. I don't think he would have called you at all if your work was crap.

There is a studio here that offers low "package" prices...but they don't come with much of anything. They really get you if you want to order something else. They shoot a lot of weddings. Not a terrible marketing plan, I guess, but the customer is so cheated right up front. They really perceive they are getting a great deal when it really sucks, if you compare other studios properly.

My pricing ranges from a stupid low of $995.00 to an insane high (for the area) of $14,000.00. The lower packages are very limited and they know that. I have not booked a $995.00 in a very long time. If I do I limit it to 1/month because I will spend just as much time on that level as I would on a $5000 plan (I am just anal that way).

You might try to raise your pricing to his level, then call or send him a copy of your pricing and THANK HIM PROFUSELY for all those referrals he is going to send you. If you don't get any referrals quickly, maybe lower then just a tad to be a bit less than his maybe ($1950), or offer more in your package.

Personally, I would be shocked if another studio (not counting parttimers) called me. I think they hate me...I am not cheap either, nor am I the most expensive.

Maybe look at his call as a blessing and perhaps your ticket! If the ticket is not redeemed, then do what you want.

Having said all that, I am not sure how I would react if another studio called me to tell me they didn't like something I was doing...hmmmmmm. Sometimes being a rebel is fun...perhaps not profitable though.

I still think the fact that Keith felt a need to ask if this was kosher or not, means the guy rubbed him the wrong way. If all had gone very well, he would not have posted, no?

I just can't imagine doing that: calling up a competitor and saying what he said...I have to stick by my post, even after reading everyone else's. Hopefully you guys will laugh over this some day, but I still question his motives. And believe me, I am a big advocate of not underpricing yourself; it just sounds kinda arrogant to me.

But I've certainly been wrong before! lol

G

IN DEED!

but do you see that by randomly raising or lowering your price you aren't doing this?

you need to figure out your pricing based on your biz. i can guarantee you that at even $1500 you're pricing yourself too low to make a living at it. if you just love the biz, and don't care about making a living, keep on keepin' on. as long as you're happy. but, if you want a profitable biz, and you want the respect of your clients, you may want to sit down and write a biz plan and shape a biz model.



-and what jillian said.

I do believe that $1500 is too low, but I do have to price by what the market will pay. The town I live in is a 1500 dollar town, not a 3000 dollar town. Sure there could be some 3000 dollar weddings, but not enough to live on. And at this time I am not good enough to be a 3000 plus dollar photographer. I can admit that. The town can not even sustain The Gap in the local mall. It just closed and turned into a Gap Outlet.

Now I do think there are better and more weddings in close cities. I have a long term plan to do marketing in Lawrence and Kansas City. Those places do have the 3000 plus dollar weddings. And more competition to go with those weddings.

For sure he was protecting his turf... By his own admission, he likes your work and probably see you as a threat, specially if you offer the same at a lower price... He felt the need to call a perfect stranger (you) to "mentoring" him? posible but not probable. He was giving unsolicited advice... I think the (his) bottom line is that he does not want to loose business to you.

While he may have said some sound business practices, I think he was using it not to necessarily help you but to undermine you. If he wanted to send work your way, he could have hired you for what you charge and charge his clients his regular fee. That way he makes money from you and you get what you are asking.

So, I think his entire discourse was to get you to rise your prices so you would not be a threat to him.

i have to comment because my biz partner lives in a very depressed small town about an hour north of the 'burgh. and i live about 20 minutes out of the 'burgh.
she is always saying that her town wouldn't support us. i think if we marketed it properly, it would, however, we market to pittsburgh because it's just easier and makes more sense!
if the biz isn't where you are, go where the biz is. i know this isn't always practical, but it may be possible.

just be careful what you assume. by the way, we have a wedding in her town in may.

"go where the biz is"
This is why I plan on marketing in other areas, namely Lawrence and Kansas City.

Ditto

Which, as a thought, is not a terrible one; I have that thought every time I see a newbie enter the market. But I don't call up every newbie and tell them to raise their prices--it's just not done. Sorry. It's a free market, and eventually the brides will decide who to pony up to; this guy should have re-evaluated HIS own business, and not told Keith what to do with HIS.






This is actually true--just ask Vicki Taufer. In fact, better yet, attend her seminar. She lives in what she calls a small market and she averages $1300-1700 a sale for PORTRAITS (not weddings). It's all about perceived value. You still see Cadillacs and fancy $40K trucks in "depressed markets." They will spend the money if the value is there for them.

I have not yet met with this person. I do plan to, probably next week. I also have not raised my prices.
The good news is that I have two meetings with potentional brides on Saturday.

One other quick item. My starting price might be low to some, 1200. But they could add an $1800 Queensberry album. That would make me a $3000 photographer. I haven't sold one yet. I will some time.

First I think he was just trying to help you out with trying to get you to raise your price.
OK I was going to bring up the point of your market but a few others have already done that.
But when I started out I looked at what other photographers in my area were doing and started doing the same thing
1 Wedding shows I know most people hate them but they have worked very well for us. And I love doing wedding shows…..
2 Referrals we give brides $50.00 for every referral that they send us. I had one that we gave a weekend out of town because she gave us 4 weddings. They love that kind of stuff. Don’t be shy ask your brides if they know someone getting married.
3 Go to every vender in the area ask them to put your cards out
4 try to get on the other vender websites. I found 5 venders in town and did free family photos and even did a free shot of a florist shop
5 Maybe you should second shoot for a few photographers in the area that you want to market to so that when they are booked they will send the brides to you.

I see what this photographer was trying to convey to you, but it sounds like you were not booking weddings every weekend with your lower price. So then when you moved your price up it went down even more. It seems to me that if you were booking 40 some weddings in a year then yes I would say you are under priced. It seems as though you are trying to price yourself for "your town" only. Are there any surrounding citites that you could possibly pick up some weddings?
I am sure on the surface that this seems as though this photographer was rude, but if I were you I would try to look at it as a positive (even if he didn't mean for it to be that way) and try to better your business.

Mike,
Actually I was booking great at my lower price. I had booked 10 weddings my second year. 90% of the people I met with booked me, and I did almost no advertising. It was only untill my third year when I raised my prices and implimented a package system that my bookings stoped. My lowest package increased only $100.

And yes, as I said in another post, I plan on marketing in other cities soon.

Thanks for your post.