It's been a very long time since I posted on this forum or any photo forum for that matter but I know OSP'ers represent the nicest and most talented wedding photographers out there (Shout outs to Luke, Jason, Frank, Robert, Alisha and the rest of my friends on this board).

Anyhow, one of my best friends, Gabby, is getting married at the Hilton Garden Inn Hotel in Oshkosh, Wisconsin on NOVEMBER 10, 2007. However, I'm booked for a wedding job on her wedding day. I probaly would have been a guest or possibly in the bridal party at the wedding anyway so I wouldn't have shot the wedding anyhow. I really wished she would have consulted with me before booking her wedding venue so I could be there but it didn't happen. Since I'm her good friend and she thinks of me as her photographer friend, its my duty to look for the best photographer for the job. She really trusts me and will pretty much go with who I tell her is right for shooting her wedding. I really don't know any wedding photographers from Wisconsin, so I'm checking if the OSP network has some talent around the area.

I'm pretty picky when it comes to photographers who will shoot weddings for my friends so I hope you guys don't think I'm nutty about the specifics for the job.

Job Specifics
Photographer Style: Wedding Photojournalist for 80% of the wedding. I'd prefer someone with a keen eye to get the offbeat moments as well as good angles of the peak points of the action and emotions. Also I'd like someone who will take casual and relaxed romantic portraits of Gabby and Dave as well as the standard family portraits. They have guests coming from all over the world, many who they may never see again, so I'd prefer someone who doesn't hate shooting 30-40 minutes of elegant group portraits. Also some good set shots would nice. I'd also maybe like the photographer to shoot engagement portraits of my friend and fiancee in Wisconsin during the spring/summer months so you guys can get to know each other.

More: Photographer must have a second shooter with him/her. I always shoot with a second shooter and it's been vital to the type of coverage that I like. The wedding coverage will be about 10 hours and I want the photographer to stay till the last dance. Staying to the end of the wedding is what I always do so I wouldn't want the photographer I reccomend to not do that. I'd like someone with at least 2-3 years and 40+ weddings of experience to cover my friend's wedding.

Even More: I usually shoot 4,500 to 6,500 shots at a typical wedding (sometimes even more) and edit it down tight to 1200-1700 shots for proofs for my clients. I know this is an ungodly number (although I'm corfortable with it) so you don't have to shoot this much if you're not used to it. However, I think shooting at least 2,000-3,500 shots between you and your second shooter is neccesary to get good overall coverage of the day. You can edit that down to between 650-1200 shots (I think that's a fair final edit). I've never told Gabby how many shots I or my fellow wedding photographers really shoot so you don't have to either. You can shoot in either raw or jpeg (I've shot both and have done well with either option) but I'd like the shots to be color balanced, corrected, and processed. You don't have to go nuts and process all the shots to masterpieces but I'd like the shots to look clean, sharp and with good color and contrast. I want my friend to get high resolution files of the final edit. I know some of you may never release the hi res files of the final edit so this job will not be for you. I'd prefer my friend to take care of her own reprints. You can however put the job on pictage or any other online shopping cart website to sell to their families and friends.

My Involvement: I'd like to design my friend's wedding album as a gift for her. I will not be using the album in any way as promotion for myself since I didn't shoot the wedding and I don't need it as any type of sample (I shoot 40+ weddings a year and have been in the field for 10 years so I've got plenty of samples already). I know some of you guys count on album sales for total income from weddings (so do I so I know how annoying this could be). For me, this would probably be a deal breaker if someone offered me this job (plus I love designing albums) but I'm asking you to let me give my friend the best gift I know I can give her. You are also free to use my album design for your own promotion.

Budget: $1800-$2600 for 10 hours of wedding coverage, an engagement shoot, color corrected and processed hi res files of the final edit. For NYC, where I'm from, I know this isn't much but for Wisconsin it may be okay (plus the wedding is in the off season). Based on this budget, it probably won't be profittable for someone far from Oshkosh, Wisconsin to travel for the job (I'd rather get someone near the area). If you're really good but this job is just below what you need to make financially plus you don't want to edit and process the images when you won't be selling an album, than I'm willing to edit and process the shots for my friend. You would only have to shoot and send me all the raw files. I'd rather not do this because I'm really busy with my own workflow but I'd rather my friend get the best photographer she can afford if I can help out.

Any photographers that are serious and still enthusiastic about this job, please email me.

LINK

I would post this under the "hook them up" forum, (maybe Matt or DJ can move it there?) I think you're kinda asking a lot for a little budget, particularly with the album design, but maybe you can find someone who would be willing to do it....

Good luck.

Seriously, I wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole. You want someone to do all that for *half* of what you charge for your smallest package *AND* hand over any chance of making anything extra. You might find someone just starting out or portfolio building that thinks that's a good deal but now someone with the experience you're requiring. By the time they paid the second shooter they'd be lucky to make minimum wage....

Hey guys,

I never said it was a great budget and I'm not asking anyone outside of Wisconsin to travel to do the job. Also I offered to do all the post production. A decent rate for a second shooter would be $300-$400 so you'd be left with like $2200. For shooting a 10 hour wedding, that would leave you with $220 an hour to shoot a wedding in the off season (not minimum wage). I'm from NYC so my rates are based on the market I'm in. Someone with the amount of experience I'd like (even comparable) from Wisconsin may be okay with $220 an hour for an off season wedding. I'm not asking anyone in my kind of market to do the job- that's crazy.

crazy no matter how you slice it.

It sounds to me like the photographer who will take this job will be working for you and your standards and not your friends. Having a best friend photographer hire your wedding photographer with that list of expectations will scare most people away. It sounds like you should hire one of your associates to fly out and cover the wedding for her so you can remain in control of what you want.

+1, reading this post made me think that I had to go through brooks institute of photography to even be considered. I would hate to take this job and be the one to screw it up

I feel the same way. If you are not shooting for the bride and groom but for someone else's expectation. I wouldn't take the job. It should be about the bride and groom and what they want.

Look I'm not as anal as you guys think I am. All of you guys are qualified to do the job and do a great job for my friend. My friend told me she had a budget which I didn't think was much and I offered to see if I could help her out and find someone willing to do the job and do a good job. I'm definately not looking to insult my peers. For a lot of you guys, the job is beneath you, which is fine and I can understand and I'm not asking you to even consider it. If everyone here is insulted by my job listing, have DJ pull this post out. I really mean no offense to anyone and I'm not looking to start a fight.

I don't think it's a budget issue, I would gladly work for that type of money. I am definetly not "above" the wedding or budget. It sounds like it will be a great wedding. The thing that put me off is the long list of "requirements" and all the specifications. I think that if any bride gave me a list this long and specific quoting how many photos to be taken, etc etc, I would turn the other way. I am sure you will find someone that is interested in doing it though. Good Luck

I think you just approached this offer the wrong way. That job is not beneath anyone here. You are too close to the situation and the industry. A simple post asking people if they were available on her date and could do a wedding with her budget would have been fine and you would have recieved a better response.

We all understand you want the very best for your friend but you have scared us away.

When I made the original post with the job specifics, I didn't write it thinking that most of you guys weren't qualified, I wrote those specifics because I thought just about everyone here was qualified. C'mon guys, those generic criteria I mentioned about shooting 80% PJ and doing some nice portraits here and there- Everybody here does that. Shooting between 2,000-3,500 shots a wedding- Everybody here does that. I wanted everybody to think, "O.K., I'm qualified but is it worth my while for that budget". Most of you would say no, but maybe one of you guys from Wisconsin which may have a slow winter season, would be willing to do the job. I realise that I worded the post wrong and I'm terribly sorry. Again, I really mean no offense to anyone and I'm not looking to start a fight.

Hold up peeps...just 'cuz someone like Lina has high standards for her friend's wedding...and a bit of a tight budget...doesn't make this completely unfeasible.

$2600 is pretty darn close to average rates for weddings in the midwest (which she made clear on the post about the difference between NYC and Osh Kosh). In fact it might even be a touch higher than average for some midwest markets. (I know in St. Louis the average, according to the wedding report, is actually $2282 for wedding photography.)

And most of her requirements are pretty much what I expect of myself for a typical wedding (tho' I tend to shoot in the ~3,000 images range and edit down to ~1,200).

I see this as a challenge for a really good photographer to prove themself. And if you'd shoot for Bella for a couple hundred bucks "to fill in an open date"...why wouldn't you consider shooting this for Lina for considerably more? Bonus is -- you'd get access to one of her killer album designs for your portfolio. (For someone like me...that has some appeal. I haven't seen any of Lina's albums...but I have seen her work and I think it's pretty amazing so I would expect the album to be at the same calibre.)

FWIW...I PM'd Lina and said I could probably make that work if the e-session requirement was dropped. Don't know if that's a deal breaker or not...but for someone a little closer to where this b&g live...it should be pretty easy to include an e-session.

It's not high $...but it's not an insult either. (IMHO)

Not a problem, I looked at it like you care an awful lot about your friend's wedding. That's okay.


Nope, I'm a "take the time to shoot it right" kind of gal. Shooting 1500 frames is A LOT of frames for me. Does that mean that those shooting 3K frames are wrong or bad photographers? Nope. Does that mean that my pictures are better? Nope. It just means that 'everybody here' does not do that.

But I'm pretty sure that those of us with a lot of wedding experience- who have run into lists like this before- are not going to jump at this wedding. We've learned from past experiences. Best of luck.

Ginger

+1 and PM & email sent.

I didn't mean to imply that the wedding was unfeasable. If I was in WI, I would gladly email to be considered. If I did the wedding, I would be making more money than what I do on my own weddings and I would be doing less work. I guess I was rather intimidated by the requirement side of things. The wedding hourly coverage with a second shooter is fine and understandable. It was the number of pictures required and the general assumptions that all photographers shoot the same way or are expected to, as well as the editing requirements. I guess you could call this an insecurity on my part, maybe I am the one being unreasonable. If Dan Watkins says this is good to go, then I don't question him, I trust Dan with my life. He is too darn cool not to trust So I guess take my application into consideration, if I am deemed worthy that is.

Well said Dan.

I was honestly astonished at the responses that have been posted prior to yours, and it's sad to see this kind of posse mentality. Lina posted up the job requirements for a gig. She's doing her best to help out her good friend. If you don't meet or like the job requirements then no comment was really needed.

Dan, I also PM'd Lina, and if I was at all closer than Canuckchuk up here, I'd gladly toss my hat in the ring.

My $0.02 CAD. No GST>

Dustin...you don't know me well enough yet!!!!

BTW -- one of the reasons *I* could make it work is it's driveable for me (in my fuel-efficient little Camry) and I have a number of friends in the Green Bay area...so my travel / lodging expenses wouldn't be very much. I'll admit...that's not an advantage most anyone else too far outside of WI might have...

sweet!

10 hours isn't the only amount of time involved in preparing for a wedding. There's the travel time to and from, the esession, the communication between photographer and bride/you, the time to edit down the number of images, the time to prepare them (even if you do the processing, there's the time involved in backing up and sending you the files). So, its more than just 10 hours. And can the photographer use the images for their own promotion? Will the wedding yield any word of mouth referrals? Will losing out on reprint orders/album sales, make this worth while?

I can understand why you're doing this for your friend, but you're basically asking an experienced photographer to act like this was their best friend and give a huge discount (something you wouldn't even do if it were taking place in NYC)...

Maybe go back to your bride and ask for a bigger budget, or lower your experience requirement, because you get what you pay for.. as you know..

All the best..

Juliet

Thanks guys for understanding. Also, I just assumed that everybody here took around 2000-3000 shots per wedding and turn in 650-1200 shots. Most of the photographers in my area I know tell me that that number is around their average so I was just posting what I thought everybody's average here was. Sorry that my misassumption scared anyone. Also, I am not in any way making a profit from this- most likely I'll lose out a couple hundred dollars. Also a bunch of you guys have already PM'd and emailed me that you're interested. I knew OSP'ers were great. Thanks and I'll email my friend the websites so she can decide on who she'd like to use.

I have been a fan of the great Dan Watkins ever since I joined OSP as a young lad. It was that mystical arms folded look of a magician avatar. I always love reading your posts and can always expect a good laugh. So what Dan Watkins speaks, is pretty much the law of the land in my eyes. What is the great quote Dan always says, "this may not be THE answer, but it's an answer" or something like that? lol IMHO. You are the man Dan. I didn't mean to cause offense by any of my posts. I just felt underqualified and normally I am quite confident.

As you know, Lina, most NY photographers lie. (...according to Luke, that is! )

I dunno about NYC but upstate I'd say +1. lol

Have any of you ever shot for commercial or editorial clients? Seriously, she is trying to look out for her friend. Nothing she is asking for is unusual. Maybe the album part is a little unusual, but personaly I hate designing albums. If you're not interested, no worries I'm sure others are.

Hey Lina

It's so good to see you in here,

Personally I will never hesitate to shoot this wedding if I'm not already booked on this day. Even if I’m losing money, I will never forget how much you helped me in the beginning of my career.

Sam

Well it is interesting that even big city photographers know what the going price is for wedding photography out in the sticks.

Hi Lina,

Glad to see you on the boards

For anyone that doesn't know, Lina is a world class photographer and a really nice person. If I lived in Wisconsin, I would shoot the wedding for free to get a chance to work with her.

Good luck,

Eric & Brooke
Be Creative Photography

This is the age of a global marketplace. At least that's what some long haired dude from the next village over told me... (he was yelling it, actually...)

I would like to throw my hat into the ring.

I would LOVE to do this wedding, sounds like an opportunity to grow an awesome portfolio, be a blessing, do a great job that God called me to do, and be apart of not only a wedding, but a celebration of life in general.

'nuff said, the gauntlet has been thrown!

-tmiller
Tim Miller Photography
http://tmillerphoto.com

Good posts Dan and Chris. Lina has been a member of OSP for quite some time and I have had the honor to sit down with her a couple of times (and Dan her albums do kick butt) including when she opened her studio to all of us before the Photo Expo a couple of years ago. Is this any way to treat someone that hasn't posted in awhile? What motivation does it give her to post again any time soon?

I would do it for you Lina. If she adds the flight and a room then no problem. If it was in my backyard I would be down with it in a heartbeat for you.
Miss you

C'mon now, honestly, how often do you get a chance to do what you love to do and make over $2k in a day? And no post processing? Yeah! The standards seem very high, but I'd take it as a challenge.

If I were free that date, and if I were in Wisconsin I would take that in a heartbeat!

Bravo to you Lina for responding to everyone in a classy way.

Dan, I would be your second shooter, but alas, Luke and I will be in Mexico!

Best of Luck Lina! Can't wait to see you agian!

tmiller = exactly muy thoughts, money isnt everything, maybe thats just the charity side speeking in me, the qualifications are scary but more intimidating to achieve rather than to pull it off!

if i didnt do photojournalism, commercial and portrait photography id come over for the sake of the experience to do photography in america rather than throughout europe!

its portfolio material and you never know you might broaden your client base throughout america through that! its always a good thing! maybe because i live in europe where you need to travel over water all the time i think alittle differently!