-Garrett Nudd... in this thread

I would love to hear the discussion concerning this!

I don't have anything to start off with, but I still think it's interesting to think about. I'll give it some thought and see if I can come up with something...LOL.

Hmmm... not sure I can contribute anything too intelligent at this hour of the day.


But to kick off the discussion... tid-bits from a conversation out in Texas with Swanman...

"...it's funny that photographers think that buying new equipment or spending hours in photoshop are the key things that make them more successful..."

"yes, when in fact those are the least of things..."

"what the industry really needs is Personality101"

I'll agree with that 100 percent! But that's not to say I don't love to tweak out a good image in PS.

It's obvious that personality is such the key to success, but so many are in denial of that fact. It's not all about your images, it's more about your image.

Coupled with that, I'm consistantly learning that a moderate ego (held in check by a loving wife and good close non-photography friends) is a good thing. At some undefined price point, it becomes clear that clients want to hire a photographer who is down-to-earth nice, but is very confident in themselves and knows that they're good. And that's something you can't do when you're sitting at the middle of the pricing spectrum.

When I met with one potential bride and her mom a few months back, her mother commented, "you're so much more expensive than anyone else in Central Florida, how do you justify your rates?" First of all, there are about five other photographers in Central Florida who she obviously handn't yet seen, whose rates are right in line, if not slightly higher than ours.

What really struck me was the fact that mom and dad were building a house in the same golf community as John Cook, Mark O'Meara, Stuart Appleby, some guy named Tiger Woods, and many other PGA stars that few people outside of golf know.

The dauguther was embarrassed by mother's question. I answered it politely but accurately. "We don't have to justify our prices, our clients do." They didn't book, and that was okay.

But we had three other meetings that day (we lump them all together when we come into town) and the other three all went well. Two of them booked, two didn't. And 50 percent is probably a fair ratio.

Since then our fees have increased by roughly 25%. We're not booking as fast (which is good) but our percentage of consults-to-bookings is at probably 80-85%. So it seems that the higher we go the more people know what they want.

A well-schooled former colleague was in our studio a couple weeks ago talking about a project when the issue of education came up. She now works as a freelance writer/marketer/video producer. She commented that in careers like ours, where there are no educational requirements, we are dependant on our personalities. In some worlds an MBA or PhD will carry you to the top, but not in ours. But who do we want as our clients? Most often it's those with the MBAs and PhDs. So it becomes increasingly important to be able to walk the walk, talk the talk, and speak their language. That's why I'm taking molecular biology this semester! LOL

It is so important for us to understand that as photographers we're not very high on the food chain of career respectability. But once those folks (PhDs, MBAs, movers and shakers in the community) meet us and get to know us, it's up to us to earn their respect before we even take a photo.

My $.03

I maybe the odd one out here, as I don't shoot weddings (well, only a handful in my career). I do mainly photograph kids & love every minute of it. I have been in business for 2 years. I have read lots of books, magazines, read way too much on the internet, & practiced & practiced & practiced. I am still learning & will always be learning. I will never, ever know it all. I have the 20D, & only two lenses that I regularly use (50 1.8 & 28-75). I have my eye on the 5D, but really don't need it now as I get awesome images from my 20D. Almost all of my business has come from WOM (word of mouth). I don't advertise in newspapers or magazines. I do have a listing on marketingtool, but can't say I got any business from that. I do have a great relationship with a business in my town that sells childrens clothes. The owner lets me put up images/cards etc, so I do get some business from that. This is the first year I am raising my prices, as I figure it previously I was probably loosing money.

As my personality, I am not extrememly outgoing . All of my clients love that I relate to their kids, am fun, kind, & caring. Maybe I would have more clients if I had more of an electric personality but then I wouldn't be me !

I agree that you don't need the newest/best equipment & be an expert at PS to suceed. I do believe your clients will come to you because of your images ( ) not because you have the newest camera & biggest lens.



ETA...Garrett, all great points!

I think it's a standard assumption that "great personality" is equal to outgoing... I don't think "outgoing" is at all what is needed to have the successful photography personality. I really don't even like people and yet, our clients seem to love us... not only as photographers, but as people as well!

A few things that, to me, are key to having a personality that connects with your clients...

1. Be personable. Legitimate. Real, even. I think, for us, this is one of the advantages of meeting in our home and being so personal on our blog.

2. Smile alot Touch people. Be physically affectionate as much as is possible for the situation. (Although I don't really like people _in a broad sense_, I have determined that if I am going to work with someone, they ARE going to be my friend. And I treat them as such! I hug and compliment and delve into their lives!

3. Find a level of connection with your client. If you're a mom, and she's a mom. There it is! If you're a literature lover, and so is she... that'll work! Anything that can connect you, find it, and use it!

4. More important than cool, more important than rockstar, more important than extrovert... you have to be friendly. You have to make people think that you are genuinely interested in them... actually, you have to BE genuinely interested in them!

Buy and Read this book if you don't know how to be a friend to people!

I whole heartedly agree with what Garrett was saying about our clients often having the advanced degrees, which they often feel gives instant credibility while we have to work to attain the same respect. In my case it is a bit different because I am working as a photographer and building my own business because I have an MBA and worked in the corporate world long enough to be downsized twice in a year (I was with Anderson when the Enron debacle hit). Lack of control over my career pushed me to follow my passion and begin building my company.

Often times I am at shoots with, and for all intents and purposes, peers as far as education and corporate resume, but am brushed aside because I am a photographer. My knee jerk reaction used to be to spout off my credentials and corporte resume in order to feel as though I was worthy. I'm over that now. If there is a camera in my hand, there's a smile on my face. That, and solid images as a result, is all the credibility I need in my own heart. And the joy I take in what I do rubs off on those around me. I know my wife is happier when I am taking photgraphs instead of building databases, because my happiness is contagious.

Happiness and being a well-rounded person, easy to talk to person are monumental. Those personlaity traits can not be faked, and break down barriers more quickly than anythign else I know.

Great thoughts everyone!



Indeed, G$, we KNOW you like to Edit



Right on Amber with good personality does NOT necessarily = outgoing. That's the fantastic thing... so many personality types in this world if we can connect with others that mesh well with ours, we're already half-way there....

I think one element that is often under estimated is the ability to relate - in a genuine way. Know your prospect - what do they do, what are their hobbies etc... doesn't it boil down to speaking to people (adults and children) on their level?

Aj

Is anyone teaching a course in this? I could use an image and personality make over.

Garrett. thanks for lumping us in with that great group of people. And I agree with you - being charismatic is an important aspect to being successful in this business. It doesn't have to be over-the-top like Jerry or as zen-like as Joe. But, I think you do have to connect with your clients on a level other than photography.

Amber said it really well:



Most of my clients don't meet me until the wedding day so I have about 2 minutes to win over the entire bridal party. I usually have a head start with the bride because we've chatted for 12 - 18 months about her wedding, but I need to get everyone else in my corner within a very short time. And only after I do that can I ask them to do things that they don't expect to do.

And once you have developed a relationship with someone, they'll be more comfortable with you - they'll laugh more, they'll connect with you and at the end of the day they trust you more too. And that trust is the key to producing the kinds of images that they expect you to produce.

me2! Perhaps we can get our friend Marcia to teach this?

Joy and I (and others on here) know a photographer who prides her/himself for being able to have a reasonable conversation about occupation with anyone who enters her/his studio. They ask their visitiors what they do for a living. If someone is a chimney sweep, she/he always has a reasonably intelligent follow-up question. One day they had a visitor come in and confess that they did mamograms for a living. I'm not sharing the follow up question for that one!

Actually...stay tuned!

"One day they had a visitor come in and confess that they did mamograms for a living. I'm not sharing the follow up question for that one! "

Excellent Garrett! Perhaps that is exactly what lightens the mood and strikes a common chord with people?!?

I agree !

And I also agree about relating to your client. Since I mainly photograph kids I really get to know them & let them warm up to me. If mom &/or dad is there I also get to know them. I ask a lot of questions & let them talk. They are almost always with me longer than they expected just because we are chatting.

Joy...I am staying tuned. I wanna know !

Amber, are you inside my head? Much of what you wrote in your post was what I was going to say and just didn't get to it. You beat me to it!


I just wanted to add, that for us, we really play off of the husband/wife team aspect and it is something that our clients absolutely love. We are totally ourselves in our meetings - with potential clients as well as current clients - and they all feed off of our "playful banter". I think it is reassuring for them to know that they have a happy, in-love couple as their photographers - helps them solidify their own thoughts on the "big day".


Rita

I like being in people's heads

We also play up the partner bit... People love Nathan and my relationship... and they love that we love each other It's another great point where we can relate with others who are in love!

I think the above points are very important and there is a recent book published called Class Acts that addresses observations similar to Amber's experience. The book is about the luxury hotel industry. I haven't read the book but listened to an interview with the author on NPR. She was surprised by the interactions between the hotel workers and guests, especially considering the disparity between incomes. She observed that it was common for the guests and workers to become friends, to the point that the guests would deliver gifts for specific employees.

Ditto to marketing and relating with the partner aspect. It's fun for us and them.

Any of you great boudior photogs out there gonna "touch" this one?

A lot of great and interesting insite from Amber in this thread thats easy to identify with! With "H" photograpy being so successful, I find your 4 points above to be quite interesting. If I read those right, it tells me that you have found a way to make your personalities work for your business. This is important to me because I am not just naturally oozing personality that people are attracted to like a magnet. I am going to assume that the type of client you are going to be comfortable/successful with is going to have something to do with the type of personality you have.

I think I need a personality meter.

Yeah, I still touch those clients....




















Before I ask them to take off their clothes.

Interesting thread! I really like Jen's comment about building trust. What about adding - Be a good listener - to Amber's great list? The ability to truly listen (as opposed to just waiting to talk!) is so important to creating the successful and trusting client relationship. I sometimes think the way one listens defines one's personality as much as the way one talks...

I suspect her course is geared towards the California crowd! Where did I put those movies anyway? hmmmm




OMG!!!! tell me more or I will have to come down to Chatt and you!



And when are you gonna teach that course?

I can't seem to grasp the concept and I keep groping for ideas!

This is the same for me and Ruth...people see how well we interact with each other (smiling, laughing, fighting , communicating). They see us being real with each other and they open up a bit more.

I think one thing people warm up to is your own vulnerability. A common bond is made if you can show that you are imperfect...conversely, having a pompous attitute closes you off.

You need to make an education DVD of that!

I highlighted the phrase I am referring to. I tried this with my 1/19 wedding. I didn't know the couple, but when I emailed the bride I was always open, when possible I'd make jokes. For example when she asked me if I could wear a suit to the wedding I sent her the image floating around here of the guy on the field with cameras hanging all around, knee pads, cap turned back, etc. etc. and I told her that was my normal wedding attire. I even accepted to take a shot with the groom when he invited me (after he had had more than a few). I was very respectful and sensitive to certain situations, I talked to everyone in the family, I made people laugh during the day. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't acting like a clown or anything, but I was just being my normal self, as I am with close friends, talkative, laid back, friendly, etc.

Well, after those few shots the groom starts telling me that I am out of my mind charging $850 for the digital negatives and he is trying to talk me into GIVING them the CD and that I shouldn't have to worry as he is sure I'll get over $2K in print sales and yada yada yada. Even the best man had to tell the bride to talk to the groom because he was being rude to me, which I didn't take personal at all, simply attirbuted to the alcohol.

And this is only one experience. When I have tried to be friendly with people, or as you put it, to make every client a friend, what I get in return is them trying to get as much out of me for free as possible. That is why to my already existing friends I don't even quote them my normal rates, they get an automatic 50% off so they know they are getting a deal from the get go.

This is just from my experience, you and others may have different experience.

ROTFLMAO!!!!
I just got this!
Okay, so I was late to the party then and I'm late to the party now. Some things never change.

Still

As much as I completely agree with marketing our personalities and how vital that is....I don't think it should be the only focus. We must also continue to perfect our craft. Both are key to success....neither can take you all they way on their own.

Amber.
Really great points.

Being real here...(as always!)

Can you explain a little more since you mentioned you don't like people in a broad sense, (twice) how that translates in how you treat them...being real, genuine, etc? You have explained it already...giving hugs and smiling...but is that truly genuine? Does my question even make sense? I know you can elaborate on this much better than I can explain it!

I know that if someone treats me as a client/friend the way you have described...its great...but many can treat me that way, esp. the service industry....

I can sense the genuineness of that person. But if they are not real and they are forcing themselves to be nice, well, I can sense that too. I will still be polite and friendly, but I would be distant as well.

And shouldn't this be under the sections, "All About You" or "Check Yourself" instead of under "Marketing" ? We have many friends who we've had for more than 10 years and I just don't see my personality with them and OSP people under marketing.

I do better listening

Ooh Ooh! Pick me - pick me!! LOL!

This thread is really good - I think all too often we get so caught up in discussing actions and lenses and RAW vs JPEG that we don't touch on this very topic nearly enough. I know that for me personally it has been all about connecting with the clients, building friendships that last beyond their wedding day, that leaves people raving. Let's be real... there are other photographers out there who's pics are just as good or better than your own and probably in your own market... so why do people pick you? Because they like and connect with YOU

I'm so glad you said that, Amber, since I've been struggling with this. It's not that I'm not personable, quite the opposite. I had it in my head that people wanted a professional and that to act like a professional meant being "businesslike." It wasn't me, it made me feel awkward, and I think it made me come off as a bit cold, which couldn't be further from the truth. I recently realized why I was uncomfortable meeting with new clients (aside from how much I hate talking about money, ever) and that the times it went utterly smoothly was when I was just being myself - happy go lucky, curious, sara.

I was wondering when someone would question that statement

What I mean by "not liking people" is that in general, I am not a great people person. Or at least, I haven't always been. If I had been left to my own devices, I think I would be a hermit somewhere.

But I have chosen not to be that way! And I think it legitimately can be a choice! So I have chosen to make the effort to be in real relationships with people!

And I disagree on the location for this topic I think personality plays a huge part in our marketing

Being single is a disadvantage for me - until I hit on the idea of hiring an escort for the client meetings. The grooms seem to really hit it off with "Krystalle." (Maybe the fact that she's actually a man helps.)

As for the personalities of the top photographers out there - they are certainly great at making other photographers feel good about buying their products and services. (I think there's a lot of idol worship there - which brings up a quote I read somewhere about that: "You are only respected to the same extent that you are either feared, desired, or envied.")

Well said and I understand better.

About location for the topic...I agree as well...to a point I guess I don't really like the term, "marketing my personality" with anything. I have long time friends that prove that I don't have to market it. Again, I probably don't make sense...but thas what happens when we meet the Torres for dinner late in the night passing through Atlanta.. ...but worth it!

Thanks Amber!

this is a great thread. a couple years ago at the dwf convention, i did a seminar called "image, images and attitude". the point was that your image and your attitude are every bit as important if not more important that your actual imageS to be successful in this business. we've since added infrastructure as the business side and workflow are also important. the entire focus of thebschool.com is about image, images, attitude and infrastructure. IIAI.

i've often said that in the wedding business, it's more important to be personable than professional. i attribute most of my success to my ability to connect with people.

"how to win friends..." is a must read.

Agree on the book read. I linked that one above

And you should leave this thread. You have absolutely NO personality...

Is that the book, How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie?


Oops, never mind. It's the same as Amber referenced.

this is a great topic, guys! all of this rings so true for Chris and I. In fact, I was mentally re-evaluating a recent 1st client meeting we had, and wondering why we didn't book them (the first one we haven't booked after meeting with them personally). After I gave myself a little bit of slack because I was really sick during the meeting and didn't feel like myself (I was spending all of my energy just trying to keep it together and not fall over from the cold medicine!), I then realized that we had spent the majority of the time talking and not listening. This particular bride & groom just wanted to see our products, and didn't really have any questions for us, so we went through a mechanical "sphiel" and that was it. Sure, we commented on her ring, and how beautiful the location was that they were getting married, but it didn't get much more personal than that. I realized that we spent the majority of the time trying to justify our prices, and not actually show them why WE were worth it!

We had another meeting a few days ago, and totally turned around our approach to the initial consultation- and it went SO much better. We left feeling great, I think the bride did too, and we feel like we could be friends already (even though we don't know if she's going to book or not). We've decided that being people who they can trust, enjoy their day with, and be "friends" with is so much more important than what our albums look like. In fact, we didn't even bring our big bag of album samples and goodies, because we really wanted to focus on getting to know her and her fiancee... and I feel like that really helped!

And Garrett, OMG I was laughing so hard when I read your comment about relating to people's jobs- Chris and I STILL joke and laugh about what was said that night!!!

Dude...you think you're late?! I just woke up!

I used to work for a company that had a rule they upheld strictly. If you were late to a meeting you HAD to sing a song. Stupid rule...but if I'm gonna make a joke about being late to the party, then I better be willing to contribute. Right? lol

I'm not even sure I know how to explain this but I'm sure it will come together by the end of my post.

A long time ago I was dating this girl and my Mom thought it was time I read "The 7 Love Languages" or whatever that book is called. I was like.."yeah, whatever...I don't need that junk (although I think I had another term for it at the time)." After a wierd ending to that relationship I read it out of curiousity. The whole point of the book is that you MUST understand how others prefer to recieve affection, love, communication, anything that relationships are dependant on. What may seem like a meaningful gesture to me, may mean nothing to the other leaving them wondering if you even like them. You also have to figure out how you like to offer those things. Then, find the perfect happy medium that leaves both people satisfied.

All of the personality traits mentioned above are very important in how we develop relationships during meetings. Amber mentions touch. Some people are wierded out by it while others respond well to it. Garret mentioned speaking their language. Some people are very uppety about their expertise and to talk like you know it could be offensive, while others like the fact they can share that knowledge with someone. For these reasons, I think the MOST important ability is to quickly and accurately read the people you're meeting with so you can interact with them in a way that's good for them. All the while maintaining a strong foundation in your own personality so that it's not lost. After all that is what sets you apart. Sounds easy right? I may very well suck at it, but at least my parents' efforts got me headed in the right direction.

Good Book- The Five Love Languages


I agree Kevin... I think it is hugely about learning how best to relate to each specific person!

oops...it was only 5? Wow! No wonder I'm single...those 2 languages I made up must be TOTALLY off base!

GREAT thread and topic. I only HOPE that the people who really need to hear this will actually take the time to read it. I fear sometimes that some people put their blinders on and only pay attention to getting the best gear, or creating a particular post-processing look, etc. and they ignore all of the things that make people truly successful.

Once you know how to LISTEN to people and how to be INTERESTED in other people and you are GENUINE about listening and being interested, then it's about developing RELATIONSHIPS and nurturing those relationships. It's about GIVING rather than taking. It's about putting your issues aside in order to give of yourself fully to those who invite you into their lives and intimate moments. It's about HUMILITY and understanding that we have something to learn from EVERYONE. It's about APPRECIATING others and their talents, which may not always be obvious at first glance. It's about taking the time to understand what makes each and every person we meet EXTRAORDINARY.

A client may love you, but if they are always giving their appreciation and never receiving any, than eventually that stream of word-of-mouth business will run dry. Much like in a relationship with your friends or family, if you have someone in your life who is always taking of your time, emotions, or generosity but never showing appreciation or giving in return, that person becomes a burden in your life and eventually leads to negative feelings associated with the even the thought of their presence. As such, it's very important to make sure our clients know how much we appreciate their business at every turn. It really doesn't require much at all, but it's the little unexpected surprises that we can do for them or give them that will show them how much they mean to us.

Today, http://www.dailyom.com had a great article on humility. DailyOM is my soul food every morning and helps remind me of the things I sometimes take for granted.

y'all are so smart. and jim- you need no makeover of any kind!
you are all so personable and uber normal, that this is natural for you. i think i've met eveyone that has posted in this thread by now, except becker and anne, and you are all awesome! and becker doesn't need my stamp of approval. and anne oozes with so much personality that i don't even need to meet her!


i know this might sound odd, but, i think, sometimes, it's really basic.

just don't be a weirdo!

don't you ever meet people and they just seem a little weird and creepy? if i was a bride i wouldn't want them at my wedding, let alone taking pictures of me getting dressed!

i think the 'normal' factor or the 'weirdo' quality may be like talent, you either have it or you don't. i'm not sure you can be taught to be 'cool'. does this make any sense?

I agree completely with Fletcher. The 5 Love Languages is a great read. My wife and I read through it together a couple years ago. Anther great tool is the Myers Briggs personlity typing. If you have a chance to take one of their tests, or go through a similar program I recommend it. Knowing how you relate and being able to identify how others relate has come in useful, I just need to continue to grow in this area.

A Men's Bible Study I was involved in had us all take a version of this test to identify our Spiritual Gifts. There a lot of variations of this test.

[B]'s recommendationg of How to Win Friends... was given to me by my parents in High School. I was insulted. I thought to myself, quite arrogantly (it was high school after all) that I knew how to make friends, this book was for loners. Then I read it. Great, great book. Again, I just need to keep developing the skills the book speaks of.

Wonderful insights folks.
Kevin, I love your sense of humor and I really wish we didn't live so far apart!

I think Becker's clients, though I've only met one or two of them, reflect his personality as well as anyone in the business. That's pretty cool.

Anne, you're totally right about hoping the right people read this. And speaking of reading, your post was especially easy to read. This is what I got from just skimming your post...maybe now I'll go back and read it to see if it says the same thing.

GREAT
HOPE
LISTEN
INTERESTED
GENUINE
RELATIONSHIPS
GIVING
HUMILITY
EVERYONE
APPRECIATING
EXTRAORDINARY



LOL Robin, re "just don't be a wierdo!"
I'd sign up for that one in an instant!

We haven't met, but I'd love to meet you . Maybe someday. And I'll try & not be a weirdo !