There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all.

- Peter Drucker

WOW! Talk about a quote that nails many of us! I remember spending weeks and months editing every single individual image after a wedding and I actually had a pretty efficient system....now I realize that was something that really shouldn't be done at all.

That's goooood.

So you hire someone to do it - or use Pictage's new color correction service?

Oh brother! Why not??

DJ, I loooove Peter Drucker! I read four of his books while getting my Business degree...and would I sound dorky if I said I had him autograph my "Post Capitalist Socity" book? Ahhhh, I'm such a nerd!

you ate pain chips as a child didn't you

Good stuff. I think I should outsource the shooting to my trusty robotic assistant

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2198233.stm

exactly, because giving quality images to our clients on a consistent basis isn't really all that important

sorry deej, i gotta give you a hard time once in a while!

That was a question. The only choices are

- do it yourself

- hire someone else to do it

- use an online service that does it for ordering purposes only (like Pictage - but they won't sell you color corrected files)

- give them some corrected images and many uncorrected ones and let them worry about it

- don't give them any image files at all

Brilliant. I was at a photographer's studio/office recently where they are continuing to manage print orders and album assembly themselves, and it was amazing to see how complicated their daily office life was!

Gotta love all the sarcasm in the responses above. Quick question to those... What are you doing to make your workflow and business scalable?

If you wanted to, you could run a business doing nothing but editing the bad shots out of a shoot before sending everything to Pictage for color correction, free album design, etc.

I'm curious as to why you need Pictage to sell you the color corrected files if they are going to do the processing and printing anyway?

BINGO!
hold your cards!

i have a really hard time outsourcing the final product. outsource the things that i can't do well, or don't enjoy. like, for example, the printing (i can't do this like WHCC) or the accounting (Brenda is a whiz) or manufacturing an album (are you kidding?). but things that will come back to ME directly if someone is not pleased, i gotta have my hand in... like 'giving quality images to our clients on a consistent basis', or fine tuning an album for a client until it's just what they want.




although this quote is, well, genius.

Oh, how very true!!

Creating happy customers.

Whether you nail your shot every time in camera or you take crappy images and hire someone to PS the snot out of them, if your customers are not happy...your business will not grow.

Don't confuse activity with accomplishment.
-Zig Ziglar

Profit in business comes from repeat customers, customers that boast about your project or service, and that bring friends with them.
- W. Edwards Deming

That's almost a great idea, and I understand why it's tempting to photographers, but clients should have corrected files both for archiving and for doing other things with - after all, this is a digital world now. (And if you don't do it, someone else will. That might not matter for people like DJ, but it does for everybody else.)

It would be great if you could use this concept for low-end volume weddings - but Pictage charges way too much for those customers in the first place.


The most important reason is that 50% of what we get paid to do (our skill, artistry, "vision," whatever) is post-production - just like it was in the days of film. Post-production is what differentiates the great from the good and the good from the mediocre (and the industrious from the lazy).

I don't see a problem with offering two levels of correction: one outsourced for speed and economy, and your own for selected images - but that only works if you can get the corrected files. Pictage only "auto" corrects the online previews (and any proofs you order that way) - then individually corrects the images as they are ordered. Other places that correct files for you charge 20 to 40 cents apiece for them, and when you are delivering 2,000 images, you have to be charging quite a bit to make outsourcing that worth your while.

Isn't post processeing one of the differentiators? If we all outsource, say to Pictage, will not everything start looking like it comes from Pictage? Granted, some don't quite have the same eye for composition, but once you reach a certain level, it starts getting harder and harder to tell the difference. But, I can recognize a Yervant image usually quite easiy. Now, granted, the guy is a MASTER at composition, but he's also a MASTER at post-processing. I would think the same would apply to his albums. They have the Yervant touch, which could probably never be duplicated at Pictage.

Also, at what point, with all the out-sourceing, do the brides become even wiser (compliments of all the wonderful forums) and decide that all they REALLY need is a shoot and burner, and the special album company can make them a killer album out of substandard, thoughtless images.

And for the high-end photographer outsourcing every aspect except the actual capturing of the image (and some even do that!), then about the ONLY value is being associated with the name of the photographer. That might be hard for a lot of less famous folks.

Maybe some day when everyone is outsourcing I can hold a seminar teaching folks how to create a niche by marketing the fact that they ARE indeed unique and custom. Charge much higher prices, work a lot less, and actually have fun putting the album together.

Isn't this an awesome vocation!! I mean, you have to wake up every day and figure out how your going to be unique and desirable in a market that is so full of uniqe and desireable it's not even funny. CUSTOMER SERVICE, that's the real key, and I guess the customer will ultimately dictate if outsourcing is the bomb or not!

I can see outsourcing every non-creative aspect of a business, but when it comes to the image and the album, I'm not so sold on the idea. Hhmmm...

I sometimes wonder how many albums I could design with the time I spend reading forums...

With outsourcing, the idea is to outsource only the things that someone else can do as well as or better than you.

And we have already reached the point where many low-end brides just want a shoot and burn photographer so that they can get their prints at WalMart and their albums through Kodak.

It's only a matter of time until online companies (with national brand names) start offering premium printing services and higher-end (though still much less expensive) albums.

This goes back to the consolidation of the industry. The vast majority of wedding photographers will eventually become shoot-and-burn contract workers for national companies - just like the sports and news photographers are.

So true Michael (even the last part...too bad I don't have my design software on my "real job" PC...hmmm...time to get involved in some more web projects ).

Drucker is (was) a huge advocate of outsourcing...but look at whom he was directing his messages...General Motors and other large manufacturing corporations that by the middle to late part of the 20th century had become woefully inefficient at mass production -- organizations that had trouble distinguishing core-business from non-core business.

Sure, there is a lot to be learned from iconic management consultants like Drucker (who lived to be almost 100 years old)...but, in the business we're in, let's not forget what makes each of us unique. If you are doing business with the "biggest" (whatever) just to be doing business with the "biggest" (whatever), you're on your way to your own commoditization (*hence forcing your prices downward, dilluting your bottom line...at which point you'll likely have to insource again...but you won't remember how to turn your computer on let alone master a curves adjustment...okay...who's still paying attention to me? ).

Corporations have outsourced their labor force, and their personnel, accounting, and IT departments; what they need to do is outsource their CEOs. I'm sure there are some bright MBAs in India who could run a corporation well and who would do it for less than $100M a year in compensation.

Check out Mike Colon's stuff... it isn't heavily post-processed... and he is certainly bringing in the high-end brides




If you are focused on creating relationships with those brides, that will never happen

You don't have to be "famous" to have value associated with your name!



Agreed. On all points, including the last one

Obviously, everyone can't afford to outsource everything... but outsourcing as much as is humanly possible will only give you more time to spend on the customer service that you talk about. Spending hours attached directly to the computer... well, that's not my idea of good customer service!

That sucks, if true. You can't totally discount the "perceived value" aspect, though. Many people would never consider using ANYTHING "discount" and will continue to seek out the specialized "artist". They WANT an individual they've met and established a trust relationship with, vs a company sending out a contract photographer. I just wonder if you outsource to someone who can do it as good or better, than just how specialized are you really and how much of what you do is actually "art". (I know, that's an entirely different thread!). If all you process artistically is what you show on your website, won't there be some dissappointment when they receive their outsourced (auto-corrected) images? Maybe not.


Excellent point!

This is how I feel. Everytime I have tried to outsource anything, ANYTHING creative part of my biz it has ALWAYS come back to bite me in the ass and I spent more time and money correcting the problem than if I had just did it myself in the first place.

When does outsourceing stop and our biz becomes something else?

I have witnessed careers built on activity - people around them can see the difference.

what a geat quote.

Pardon me for being a "Gilligan", but why?
I dont understand.
Shouldnt you put your best product forward even if its not recognized?

One thing we must all realize is that business and life is a popularity contest. We can fight that or we can accept it and realize that our success is going to be based on whether or not people like us.

I know it's tough to swallow but our success in the business of wedding photography has very little to do with art or photography.

We need to spend less time thinking about our compositions and more time thinking about our disposition. That's what people pay for and that's what separates the people succeeding in our industry from those merely surviving.

I'm not saying that it's wrong or bad to be in this because you love art or are passionate about photography but if that's what you want then that's what you'll get. If you're in this to create a certain type of life for yourself or to create a good business then you're gonna need to accept the facts and operate differently than those who are in it for the art.

Cheers,
DJ

i dont think mike is a good example at all, my interpritation is that he doesnt agree with a lot of the stuff people are pimping out right now. just the other day in his webinar he was saying the gary fong business method of upselling albums doesnt work with higher end clients and it's not an effective approach. from what i know of mike, and you all know him just as well, but my interpritation of mike is that it's all about creating a great customer experience. if that means retouching his own images or designing his own albums, thats what he'd do. he's not focused on catchy business words that he read in a book.

again just my take on it, but im sure mike would rather speak for himself.



well i guess it depends on your interpritation of "facts." to me the highest end photographers that first come to mind when i think of the united states are mike colon, becker, joe buissink, jessica claire, and fred marcus studio (just off the top of my head). ive already touched on my feelings with mike, becker and jessica claire to my knowledge, neither of them oursource everything or even use pictage (i know b hates them), joe buissink to my knowledge doesnt use them, and fed marcus studio has a staff of i think 8 full time employees who do all of their "outsourcing." that's not including people like marcus bell and/or yervant who dont use pictage either. i think the real higher ups in our industry realize that in order to create a master company their must be some personalization in the business and management to begin with.

im sorry you dont agree DJ, but IMO photography does matter in a photographic business. it doesnt so much for you because your business is selling products to other photographers. but delivering a quality product on a consistent basis is an important part of a photography business, no matter how many catch words are used to say otherwise.

ps - i forgot denis reggie, crazy i know LOL, but i dont really know much about his operation...

OK I hate to disagree with "Master"(J/K), but if your the most hansome, outgoing personable , smart as a whip, charm the pants off anyone kind of guy, but your images suck...isnt that a problem.
Dont you think there should be equal loyalty to both ends of the house. Your front end gets the business and develops the relationships where your back end produces the quality that will make them return, loyal clients.
If you begin to think that your the cats pajamas all over town and that your reputation preceeds you, youve got it in the bag no matter what, you might just get hip checked by the next guy that is just a bit taller, a bit cuter, a pinch more charming, but still gives 110% to his images. (I am in no way referring to you BTW, its just an example).
Making it to the top is one thing...that I believe is driven by popularity, rubbing the right elbows and playing the game. Staying on top requires alot more cunning, because while your sleeping, the next guy who wants to be you is awake and bettering his game.

Just my thoughts.

Many of your comments are inaccurate about the photographers you mentioned and it's sad to see you continue to take a bully type approach in conversations like this.

I do have many businesses, creating solutions and software for photographers is one of them that spawned out of a wedding photography business that is still going full steam ahead and which I work very hard at.

"Heavily" isn't the point - it's "well." And I don't think Mike Colon does nearly "as well" in the post-production department as Becker. But in the high-end referral business, people don't comparison shop.

Geez... how do I keep finding myself in the midst of posts that make me have to think

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that Mike was an outsourcer, just that he didn't heavily post-process his stuff... which is what the previous poster was claiming was a inquisitive.



I think there has to be a balance of sorts... and I think that balance can still be held while outsourcing a huge amount of your work! Nathan and I do place a high level of importance on our "art" but we realize that in order to function effectively as a family, and as a business, we must rid ourselves of as much work as is humanly possible!

On that note, I need to go make dinner for my family

Carry on.




Um, and your point?

Depends who thinks they "suck" - I was just in Paris and in my opinion the Mona Lisa sucks...but does that matter?

No - equal loyalty splits your time, it's a distraction. Find out what you're good at and don't do anything else. If you've heard my "Get FREE" talk you've heard me say that the first thing we have to do in order to be successful is to Focus.

I never said anything like this. Pride and arrogance will kill you. We're seeing it happen all over our industry.

Again, there are certain facts that small businesses run by. They are like gravity - you don't have to believe them for them to be true but they are facts and so you can either live by them or die.

Cheers,
DJ

I completely agree with DJ. This is a flow of thought I've really been wrestling with since PPA. I had a conversation with Liana and you know what her post-production workflow is?

Download images
Select the good ones
Upload to Pictage
Select favorites for album

Pictage does color correction
Pictage does the album design
She doesn't touch the stuff.

And yet, somehow (and this will upset the artists on the forum--the ones who edit every photo) her clients are screamingly happy and she's wildly successful.

This confirms what I know to be true in my own business: the quality of the final product is not the most important thing. As an example, I use White Wedding Albums for my albums. They're NOTHING like a Queensberry (or any number of other vendors in the space). They're definitely on the low end of the album quality rung. My brides LOVE THEM. They rave about them, they show them to the world.

I open about 1% of my photos in Photoshop. I spend a total of about 8 hours after the wedding--including selection/editing/album design/etc.

What is happening then? It's about service. It's about client expectation. It's about capturing the right moments. And, yes, it IS about the photography--but the photography has to just be "good enough." If you serve your clients well, you won't have to spend countless hours editing later. The more successful photographers I talk to, the more I'm hearing the same story.

I'm not saying the folks who want to edit every image in Photoshop can't do that. Just don't expect to have the same amount of time to do the other things necessary to elevate (Nudd!) your business to the place where you're shooting less, making more, and enjoying free time.

$.02!

Im still fairly a "small fry" and still all bubbly in my attitude towards my business, because it is still manageable, and I can wear all of my many hats effectively. So my opinions are probably not as appliciable to those who are in the "grown ups pool".
Its not about the delegation of duties ,streamlining, or outsourcing really. I just interperted from DJ's post kind of a "status relieves quality" storyline.
I may have misinterpreted.

100% true. Unless you're serving a VERY specific client - and by that I mean another photographer or art professor - the client can't see the difference between Luke's images & Buissink's. It's just not there to them. They're both great, both do fantastic work.



Ditto - and our brides LOVE the "consistency" of the images, love that we don't do 50 great images and leave 450 looking average or "unedited" in their mind - even if we do a little color correcting, exposure etc. if we art up 50 "perfectly" it just shows them the possibility which is never realized for the rest of their images.



100% agree again. Nobody is saying "if you're a terrible photographer" because of course you have to be technically proficient & do a good job. You need to capture some good moments, make people laugh, make them cry, make them say ooh ahh wow. But past that it's all the same to clients. You can believe this or not but show the same client a whole wedding from me, Swan, DJ & Luke. Other than the $7000 difference in price from top to bottom, I would bet the clients couldn't put them in order of price. Price does not equal quality and quality does not equal "artistic" to *most* brides.




I think (and DJ can correct me) that DJ is saying there is a certain level your photos need to be. Once they're at or better than that level, photography is secondary to business. Business is based on time & money - and in his model of doing it, he'd rather have time to grow the biz than the money saved from not outsourcing because in the end he can grow the biz to make *more* money than that.

There are two valid ways of doing business - homegrown doing all the work and paying Pictage or someone else to do it. Both work. The quote is nice though.

Brides do no comparison shopping except for looking at fully-retouched samples and albums - and very little of that if they are getting a referral. That's easy to take advantage of.

I can't believe that I am about to type this, but I think I agree 100% with Kevin Swan...

As long as you meet the minimum quality level expected and greatly exceed the minimum service level expected you are going to keep your clients happy and generate plenty of referrals.

I am very happy that Kevin pushed WWA so much because they make an album that my clients really love and it doesn't cost as much as a small used car!

I like to spend as little time on editing as possible so that I can spend as much time as possible in stock trading, real estate investing, e-commerce and having fun. Whether I run the Brilliant settings on my photos and spend 20 minutes or whether I edit each image by hand and spend 40 hours, I don't get the client to pay me any more but I can make a few +10-20% trades in TDAmeritrade each week in the 39 hours and 40 minutes I save

Matt, I think you summed up what I was thinking quite nicely

Tell that to Terrell Owens...




Ever fear that you will become the photographer who cares more about stock deals than pleasing a bride's mom?

Ever fear that you'll (and it may happen) not actually beat the market on a trade?

Just being a sh*t-disturber...it's part of my zip code (right Jen?)...

The frustrating thing about working with mostly non-referral weddings is that you actually have to compete on every factor: price, quantity, artistry, speed, and "quality."

- Not too worried about it, I love what I do and so far I have no really displeased clients
- I'm not afraid of losing, I am 100% certain I can make anything back 10000x over
- It's cool, devil's advocate isn't a bad thing

Categorically untrue. When I started, I jumped in at a high price range and never budged on my fees. I wasn't competing in the price or quantity arena. If you're standing for everything, you stand for nothing--and you will attract only the brides who are purely price-trolling. Pick something you can do well and specialize in it. Trying to be everything to everyone is the worst possible move you can make in business.

$.02

What are trying to say?

yeah...right...Kevin Swan is just the average guy who jumps into a photography business.

Kevin...hasn't anyone ever told you that you are what statisticians refer to as an "outlier." (not to be confused with someone who doesn't tell the truth... LOL)

I know Brady has already answered this for him - but I do want to say that I think this goes back to the WHY of why you're a wedding photographer. I'm a wedding photographer because I love taking photos and I can make money at it. If I was making more doing stocks and I liked that too I'd probably do that instead. In Brady's case he's making money doing both - so why wouldn't he want to be the photographer who cares about stock deals? Stock is a great way of living beyond the income of a typical photographer.

Does anyone really want to be just "a decent photographer for a decent wage"? We all want to be at or near the top - if not for income than for client love. Nobody really wants to be average and yet most people are by definition. The "artists" who are photographers will disagree with me here but there are a bunch of "business people" saying the same thing - make your money the most profitable way. Whether you agree with Becker's "most profitable" or DJ's most profitable, they agree that the goal is a good business model with some above average photography.

I just see the goal of work as money and personal fulfillment. The goal of fun & free time can be whatever you'd like but if you're working, why not make the most money possible with the happiest clients? Neither alone will get you there.

M

100% absolutely not.

Name ONE successful company that competes & wins on price, quality, speed AND quantity.

Successful companies choose one and dominate it.

Dominos - speed but quality sucks.
Pizza Hut - quality but price sucks.
Little Caesars - price but quality sucks.

You absolutely do not want to try to be "good" at all 3 - you won't be the "best" at any.

Thats how I feel. I just forgot my articulation booster this morning.
Nicely said.

I don't think I'm that much of an outliner. The principle applies for bell-curvers, too. Specialization wins over generalization. Not that there aren't "outliners" in this law, but it's overall a good datum (as long as we're being statastitiony) to hang onto when you plan your biz approach.

oh boy, give me a break. bully approach? why because i have an opinion? DJ no one on this board goes around telling others how wrong they are more than you, and you want to tell someone else they are taking a bully type approach?

whatever dude that is weak. you want to talk about this friend to friend feel free to email me or call me, if you can find the time.

Maybe instead of flaming back, you should have called him friend to friend?

actually DJ never returned the last phone call or email i put in to him. the only way i know how to even reach him is through OSP since i, like many others, dont get a call back or email response. good call though kevin!!