When you get back and when I get back (WPPI Paris) we should hookup sometime soon.

M

Cool - I'll be there in April and July so let's hook up!

You will have to talk into my good ear. I didn't understand you.

Hahaha... this is exactly what I was going to say (Only based on that one presentation... funny )





If there is anyone in business right now to watch... it's David... and it isn't because his image quality is leaps and bounds above other up and coming photographers (not that he isn't a rockin' photog). It is because his business mind is leaps and bounds above.


I said this in another thread, and I am going to throw it in here... You've gotta think big picture. If your idea of life to to keep pluggin' along, working hard, working lots, touching every image, quality controling everything... Well, you keep at that!

For me, my big picture goal is to spend as much time with my hot husband and adorable kids and super fun photographer (and the one random nonphotographer) friends. I can't do that if I am glued to my computer working to perfect something that never needed perfection!

So figure out your big picture, and work from there.

"Big Picture" is that a photographer joke?

Any of those assignments? or just placements - there's a big difference. Last I checked, none of those publications gave assignments - but were as you say 'a popularity contest'.



Yep, Joe B. credits his success to his printer who's name escapes me.

robert cavalli

wow.

...it seems that the editors like the work which is the question you asked...

I wonder how much "assignments" pay compared to what I get paid from my clients....and I actually get paid from some of the magazines too after they publish. Again, I don't know...maybe it's better to shoot "assignments" for magazines and newspapers. Please enlighten me if that's the case... but the original question was whether art directors and such liked my work so I dunno but I assume they do when they put it on the cover of their magazines.

Best of luck to you Neil. I think you'd be better off accepting the reality of the wedding photography industry insteady of fighting it and trying to take punches.

I'll be giving 2 more workshops there in April and July.

Check it out here!

Here's a picture from the last one in January! So much fun!

DJ,
The posts the last few days have been full of emotions. I do not want you to think that me or anyone else on OSP do not respect you. You are a huge inspiration. Maybe we push you from time to time because of our respect for you. There is no lack of appreciation for your success or resentment of your success. You are and will continue to be respected by me and everyone on this forum. We all owe you thanks for moving the industy in positive directions.

Very nicely said Matt.

This thread is much improved from where it was at a few days ago. The core argument is given equal photographic output, the photographer who outsources (in a quality way) and spends more time focused on biz and relationship development will end up being more financially successful than the one who spends all their time on thier work and not putting in the time for their biz. If it is a given that the end product is the same (in the eyes of the consumer) then what DJ says is, in fact, fact. You can't argue with that.
But success can be defined in many ways; if I was doing what DJ is doing right now I would not consider myself successful as I want to be home with my family more than he is home. But, I started in the Artist camp but now that I have taken some time to really consider what DJ is saying I am coming around to the Biz camp. Sure, DJ's biz model doesn't work for me but his principals of doing business certainly can! I am now looking to outsource some of the activities that take up my time (like album design) that I could be spending on my biz. At first I thought it would be foolish to pay someone else for what I could do but then I realized that, given my limited time, I should be out there selling myself rather than sitting at my cpu making albums.
The discussion started really bad but has ended up being a huge help to me. Thank you to everyone on both sides (the artist arguments were exactly what I would have said).

good post matt, and i agree.

im not going to chime in with a strong view this way or that way, but i do think if more of us concentrated more on learning from each other rather than argueing with each other.... we'd all benefit from it.

i think the problem stems from many people pigeon-holing those of us who prefer a more custom approach as if we are sitting in front of our computer 14 hours a day with no life. while there could certainly be some of that going on somewhere, i dont think that's the case most of the time. we outsource what we dont like to do, or cant do, and keep in house (whether that's ourselves or through hired help) what we think is extremely important or in a situation where we feel like there is no alternative that matches what we want associated with the brand we've created. i think we get labeled as a "do it yourself" type model, but that's obviously not the case. while more things are done through the studio than in other business models, we're not this slave to the business that most "outsources" like to portray. i know im pegged as one of those people who like more of a custom approach, and i think it's an accurate label, but if you think im sitting in front of my computer slaving away at album designs all day because im anal...... ive actually made the decision to try using la-vie in 2008 for most if not all my packages. that way ill have absolutely NO work. im not anal about stuff, i just want to make sure everything going out of the studio is of top quality, and if a company or person can do it for me at the level of quality i want..... SWEET!

in the same token, i think many of the outsourcers get cast in a light of "they dont care about the quality." i think i believe that in the beginning too. but for the reasons mentioned above, it's slightly different but no so different that we make it out to be.



alisha will be there for a wedding in october... you all should have an OSP party in france!



as always i totally agree amber... especially about the big picture. nathan and i always say that seems to be the one thing most photographers are truly missing.

on the other hand, i dont think all of us are necessarily sitting at our computers touching every image all day either. i think whether a person outsources or does it in house... the bottom line is they have to dial in a process that churns things out fast and with quality. after all someone like becker does almost EVERYTHING in house and he makes more money and has more free time than the vast majority of people doing either method. it's just all about dialing in the process, either way.



kevin ive really been trying to find something i agreed with you on.... and i did! i 100% agree.



two agreements in one day.... we are on a roll



ehhhhh, im not sure. i think DJ and i both come from similar paths. i was the captain of the basketball team and baseball team and dated the cheerleading captain (those were the days!). DJ, from what i understand from our conversations, was a popular athlete who was a hottie. i may not have the hottie thing going, but i think we come from similar crowds perhaps... but obviously dont always see the same in business (although i think we agree more than we give each other credit for sometimes).

of course my girlfriend now is alisha, a hottie who was the captain of the cheerleading team back in HS..... so maybe things don't change all that much after all!!

Common admit it Luke....

You know you're a hottie.

haha, only if it gets you to pinch my ass

pinch pinch Rock on!

Hmmm.... I swore I thought we had a "pinch my ass" emoticon around here somewhere.....

Hey man! Back off my man!!! That's my ass!! ...............

LOL!

When I would think to say that you had a fine ass, I'm not sure this is where I imagined it'd lead... But I guess Luke is pretty hot.

ill let people believe that.... just dont show me up with some more shirtless pics!

Wow.

um, yeah... wow.

And I thought the Troy/DJ spectacle was over the top... now we have a butt pinching shirtless thread that leaves Amber speechless.

You guys are gooooood!

I don't understand your reply. I don't think your response is on the same page with what I was saying - "Last I checked, none of those publications gave assignments - but were as you say 'a popularity contest'." I was supporting your point that business is done with your friends. I wasn't comparing the assignmenet industry with the wedding industry. I was making the distinction that you're not creating for an art director, based on a story. You didn't get paid a cover rate for your photo's placement did you? I think I understand the nature of the wedding industry - and I don't think your work placed on the cover of this or that was based solely on your creating it for their purposes.

Do you want me to believe that they randomly selected you out of the croud based on artistic merit? (Is that the point of confusion?) IF you showup on the cover of Aperture - maybe I'd buy it. Otherwise, its probably to do something with your friends at Pictage, your software, your work in creating the buzz that you write about so often and what you do promoting to those art directors. Those art directors aren't there to push the envelope of creativity and art - their job is to sell ad space and they'll put whatever they think will get thier magazines off the shelf on the cover. Am I close to reality? I do hope I'm wise to the world by now

Surely you also use those art directors to your advantage in selling more Show-It or whatever other benefits you feel are having your name in front of that crowd. Go make a million, use the system however you want - but don't be freaked out by a quiet artist guy in a corner over here.

I feel like you're taking me negatively, when I'm just trying to sort out what's before me. You define your own success story, proving that you can do what you want. I have no interest in being you though - I started interested in defining what's useless for me. I find it helpful to read your thoughts as its not a perspective I am native to. I share your interest in having freedom - but for me, that's living on my little dead end street, making breakfast for my children in the morning, and reading them to sleep. I'm not seeking what you're seeking.

Sitting down at the computer and improving captured files is a satisfying day's work for me. I was joking before about doing your post work - but I may just look into that for someone to 'gain' a profit center so I can afford to 'outsource' my networking to some wedding planner, publicist or PR firm. I believe Bella has taken advantage of this temperment of people on a large scale if I understand the nature of the wedding industry correctly.

Punches? I've lost you. Maybe I should start taking Karate with Liesl

I'll pinch your ass Amber!

Promise?

After I stand in line with everyone else from OSP!

If you don't I will. Liesl can kick me anywhere she wants. Yeah, I just went there.

OK, I thought I'd chime in. I'm a huge, huge Deej fan. I mean huge. Like, I'm gay-but-married for DJ. Seriously, I like the guy's philosophy and photography. That grass/bride shot is sweeeeeeet. And he's done an amazing thing... almost single handedly changing the cut throat nature of the biz. But I gotta say I'm really bummed out by what's been said here.

I was the outsider in high school. Everyone hated me. I was chubby, and I had a killer mullet and matching fasion sense. But I had a decent sense of humor and I was smarter than people thought. I listened to metal music.... and punk rock and alternative. (I mean, I was SERIOUSLY a freak). Even the freaks didn't want to hang with me. Luckily, my wife was freakish as well. But she could see she had a real catch... Wooo!

So, when I got into writing and photography, I did it as an outsider. I'm still doing it as an outsider. I'm in it for the art. I'm suicidal half the time anyway... but if I were in it for the money, I'd seriously slit my wrists. And I wouldn't mess around... I'm talking straight through the tendons and stuff... Sorry if that's vulgar, but I don't want to mince words here.

So, yeah, save yourself some time and outsource. But the work's fuckin' important too.

i just have to pipe in and say i give my average client 700-1000 final images. all of them are touched and tricked out with my custom actions and i do it in around 3 hours.

i use my own editing system called actionrunner. if you see me in vegas i should be able to demo 2.0 for mac!

jim

also, i just read the first few comments about what you do to edit your images etc. and i didn't read all the others, so after seeing the response above me i hope i'm not piping in and sounding VERY trite, i probably am. sorry if so.

For Crissakes, Jim. What the hell does any of this have to do with your action runner?

in all seriousness shane, if you ever commit suicide just know that whatever you "escape" it wont compare to the pain that it causes everyone around you. i just wen through this pain myself with a friend of a friend and it SUCKS! if they had known what it would cause those around them I really believe they wouldn't have done it. i pray this makes sense to you.

Yes Jim. That was a horrible thing to joke about. But that's my personality. Get used to it.

I know exactly who was captain of a team in high school.

This place IS high school.

Is there a record for hijacks in one thread?

Croup can be cured with steam, but a cold winter snowy night out on the porch in blankets works best. I am not sure what to do in the South.

LOL!!!! Can anyone guess which team Garrett was a captain of?

BTW, I really like your post about business being art as well, (I think on page..er..6)

Thank you Joy! Can't wait to met you at WPPI. I am arriving Monday for the champaign shootout.
Jen Grigg
801787-5755

ps—I spent the afternoon photography nurses who will win an award for excellence next week and I thought of you!

Thanks man... also ....I think the work matters for us as artists on a whole different level....I have kept my thoughts and comments in this thread relating to a wedding photography business and so art, music, drama, etc are important to our life in a different way in how they create meaning in our life. I'm with ya Shane...I know the business only talk tends to be uninspiring to many but I think it's important for the truth to be out there so that's why conversations like this are good.

Rock on!
DJ

p.s. Jim Hicks - Have you read the Anatomy of Buzz yet? I'm serious because if you have then I'm surprised you're still spamming. This is not a workflow conversation, nobody asked about your product so why blast it up and make everyone think "that was lame" (and then send me emails about your spam) - Somebody just got kicked off OSP for spamming - you're doing a disservice to yourself, your business brand, your action runner product and Thirst Relief when you say stuff like that....not to mention disrespecting the people in the conversation.

Jim,

I agree with DJ (GASP-- Yes, you read that correctly )

This thread has not been about HOW to improve our workflow, but rather why we have our workflows the way they are.

Your post would have been appropriate in a different thread, where software and workflow mechanics were being discussed (not the philosphy of such, like this thread) -- provided that you offered info about the software in regard to that discussion. But this time, even I have to say, you post was way off context.

"Rock On"

Yikes. This is why I shouldn't be allowed near a computer when I've had a few drinks. I think drunk shane was just trying to say that artistic integrity and business acumen do not have to be opposing forces. OK, I'm crawling back into bed.

We knew what you meant!

Ok, for real I hope you guys can believe me on this one, but . . . i really did think this was about outsourcing/workflow/color correction stuff. I had like 5 minutes, I looked at recent posts, read a couple items, chimed in on what I think is a good solution to editing EVERY image QUICKLY and not relying on outsourcing my editing, yet doing it efficiently (thus the original quote) and just chimed in. I even made comment of probably sounding trite cause i read the one above me. I thought it was just a crazy long thread about workflow/editing/outsourcing. After just spending the last 20 minutes reading all the BS back and forth I realize I wouldn't have even left a post at all about anything other than i might say I like you as a person dj. sorry i came off as a spammer. For the record, plenty of people will hear about ActionRunner in the next couple days as it's a major part of a cover article, I wasn't spamming, just trying to offer an incredible solution. I was wrong to have left it in this thread without reading further. Please forgive me. Your right about the Anatomy of Buzz, I just like editing with my product that i can hardly not chime in when it's a question about workflow. I was incredibly off on this one since it morphed into a character bashing/accusation thread. At least I am being slammed in good company peace.

Jim- that is spamming right there! "ActionRunner...Cover article...incredible solution..."
When you throw in your product name, and how incredible it is, that is spamming. Even if this thread was only about workflow you would still be guilty of spamming, twice.
You may now be asking how Jessica is getting away with the shootsac threads. Maybe someone else (DJ or Matt) can point out the difference?

I was thinking the same thing... Jim, if it is so life changing, as you say it is, then I'm sure we will all hear about it from somebody other than you.

Also, I believe very little of what I read in the newspaper or magazines. When I saw all the magazines touting how lifechanging Aperture 1.0 was I realized something was off b/c that was one of the biggest flops I've seen and all these articles came out about how amazing it was just about the same time all the developers were getting fired and Apple was handing out refunds b/c it was so bad.

Again, I ask - have you read The Anatomy of Buzz? It sure doesn't sound like it.

Personally I don't mind people starting a post about their own products in appropriate places on the forum. So I honestly don't mind Jessica pimping her thing in her own thread because if people don't want to know about it they don't have to go there....it's more when you hop in an unrelated thread and hijack it that's when it tends to bug people.

How do you feel about this? Honestly...I'm all about community making the decisions so if Jessica's post bothers a bunch of people let's talk about it and figure out what everyone can agree on. I just breezed through it and it seemed like a lot of people are indeed excited about it so that's cool.

Ummmmm, don't you guys have planes to catch?

See ya in Vegas. Yes, I want to see the shootsac and actionrunner.

I wouldn't have known about them except for this forum.

I also pre-ordered MeRaKoh's children's video and own almost everything DJ and Fong sells.

In my opinion, lots of members of this forum are selling something. Its just that some are more tactful about it.

If we all could type prose, then we would all be rich.

If you read my website, the writing is terrible, but if you read Davina's, it will make you cry.

The point is, we are all selling something. Maybe making mistakes and learning about them on this forum will improve our prose.

Or we can all just goof off and have fun. See ya in Vegas! Now get on that plane!

Off Topic -- but related to JG's post above:

How about a niiiiice set of rules (as a sticky -- like this one)describing what is and what is not appropriate. Then we members will be more aware of what to do should we wish to promote a product that we sell/own/like to use/etc.

Edit: Interesting side idea... how about a new category "New Product & Upgrade Announcements" where product owner sponsors are allowed to post a thread about their new product -- and not junk up other topics?

I don't mind because I agree with this:

As long as people aren't constantly bringing up their product in other threads it's cool. Photographer's office, Swan's InDesign stuff, shootsac; it's all been cool because it is only brought up in it's own threads.
This I what I figured but I let it for you to say.

Right on! I totally agree.

Forgive me for not being able to follow the scattered course and purpose of this thread, but is this quote in reference to photography or to the business of wedding photography? If it's about the latter, okay. I concur.

I'll make this post on the assumption that the former is the discussion, though. The exhilaration that I get from shooting isn't like anything else in my life. It's so satisfying that merely talking about it feels a little bit dirty. Photography for me is like making and revealing secrets. It's seeing something that's so true and blinding that it's not possible to see. It's the most concrete, yet the most ambiguous, purpose in my life right now. If my photography doesn't matter unless people like me and know about me, then why does my personal work make me feel so fantastic, even when I know that no one but me will see it? Why do I get a little shiver when things just fall and click into place?

I don't know why I'm responding to this. I honestly don't even know what this thread is about, conclusively. I'm still not sure how to treat croup, despite all the info. And while I love me some cowbell, I'd rather have a beer.

Amen.

WOW- I just found this thread. I didn't read all of it... but I did want to say that I COMPLETELY agree with DJ about being popular vs. being the best photographer. Even if you are just the most popular in your home town.

Gary has told me several times that he sucked for the first 10 years of his career.... and yet in year ONE he was touring the country for Art Leather because he was selling the biggest albums in the country. His clients liked his work and that is all that matters! If you pay attention to your clients, you will notice that they pretty much like whatever you show them. Go sign up on the knot and you will see what I mean. Brides get on there and show off their wedding images and go ON AND ON about how great they are.... AND THEY SUCK!!!!



It's not about being the best (like DJ said... that is just an opinion anyway)