From what I understand croup is an inflamation of the trechea, Asthma is in the bronchials. Asthma impedes the ability to exchange O2 properly in the alveoli. Croup is environmental. Asthma is a result of a more physical response.

I MIGHT BE TOTALY WRONG.(Disclaimer)

http://www.webmd.com

Thanks not really like Asthma, Lil has Asthma.

aw bummer! i can't even imagine baby asthma

Yeah, it's a bummer and can be scary too! We don't know what's triggering it yet. Lil likes to break out in random rashes too!

random allergies? yikes! i'd suggest the accupuncturist but i think she's too young.. ha!

Bless her heart. Croup SOUNDS very scary at the time and can render a child (and parent) pretty miserable, but it doesnt critcally escalate like Asthma does. Asthma can turn ugly very very quickly. Im sorry to hear that.

I'm like Dan, the first rash she broke out I was all like freaked out at the Dr.'s Office. Now it's like, OK, Lil has another really wierd random rash, sweet......... Where's the lotion?

What? You mean your pictures aren't perfect right out of the camera???? I "never" have to do any post processing! (God, please forgive me for that terrible lie!) I'll take anything that helps me make my workflow simple and my LIFE complex!!!

Heehee...my post ended up in the wrong place...good luck on the little sicky. When I was little I had those same symptoms and it was Asthma. Hope the little one feels better.

First - I'm only on page 2....but had to respond before I forgot everyone's point.



Sure DJ, but you won't ever get an art professor or student to look at your work as a popularity contest. I do serve a market that looks critically at the emotional, compositional and tonal relationships in my work. From Kodak employees to art directors - they know their stuff. I find reading your perspective completely foreign to me because I am an artist to the core. I find the greatest exhilaration in the perspective, moment, composition, and content of the IMAGE. If we were to go head to head in an image contest - I think I could show you up on nearly every level. But the converse would be true in a popularity contest. That's fine with me because we're different people.

But that doesn't define success. You see that's my personality and temperment - yours is yours and I'm glad to read it cause its COMPLETELY FOREIGN to me. You're a popular guy, cause that's how your personality merges with your work. I think that to convert your assertions to a more universal perspective we should say that INTEGRITY will produce success. And one should seek integrity with onself, and put the business together around what you need.



Ok, so you want to outsource your photofinishing - but since I'm the opposite of you I don't - I want to outsource my office work. I want to hire a perky detail and popularity oriented person to MANAGE ME and my creative drives. (PM to apply!) That is what my business needs. That gives me the freedom to achieve what I am best at - the art and the image. While giving a person who understands popularity the job of being popular - I really don't understand it, and could care less about it. But instead of just saying the Mona Lisa 'sucks' I can quiet myself and study it. Because the Mona Lisa, like all famous art - is just a popularity contest which surely reinforces your first point so I'm not sure why you were stating it that way.

Good to see a meaty discussion on here.

Oh, now I don't feel so bad since the thread swerved just after page two.

Neil, keep it coming man! This is a daily struggle for me. We are in the same market and I get the art savvy RIT students and their parents who also went to RIT. Many of my clients have a very keen sense of art and can distinguish good photography from bad photography like it is their job, because it is! I edit ALL of my images. Sometimes I feel like I am falling behind on the fun and games and photo parties that create a popular photographer, because I am a artist first. Being an artist is a much bigger job than being a photographer. I see your point everyday, yet I understand DJ's point too. I am really trying to decide were the line in the sand is. How much editing do I do? How much is just enough to be an artist with out killing myself?
Great thread!

I think DJ is more focused on quality of life, relationships, and helping people out. He sees that more as his calling in life than being an artist. (DJ, correct me if I'm out of line!).

Ultimately, being oriented around serving people ends up being a stronger business model in this industry--DJ's success isn't the only benchmark to look at. If you're looking to succeed, think on those things. If you're looking to focus more on the art, don't be surprised if your business doesn't put you where you want to be.

The best products do not win in our society. The products perceived as the best do win, and with wedding photography, that perception is largely based on the personality and social ability of the photographer.

$.02

This is very true. How can we change this? I believe the industry should be lead by the best photographers, not the best business person. We should hold the top photographers accountable for their work. Much of this thread is based on brides not understanding quality photography. If we hold high quality as the standard and educate brides on what quality photography is, instead of teaching photographers how to get away with as little quality as possible, this whole industry would be better off.
Consumers buy what they are sold. It doesn't make it right if we all get together and sell crap and keep the consumer from getting quality because we arrange a monopoly of sub-standard work and consumers do not know what they are missing.
I would much rather have a workshop for brides that would help them find the most talented photographer, than hold a workshop for photographers and educate them how to offer the least amount of quality to the bride.

Some of you guys crack me up... You think you can standardize art and say this is good art and this is bad art...best of luck doing that!

You say the industry should be lead by the "best photographers" - how do you define and judge that...it's impossible and will forever be impossible. Art by its nature can't be judged that way so we will forever be judged by the consumer and the consumer will always value emotions over composition and "creativity" as defined by some art school grad.

Lastly, do you think I deliver high quality work? I seem to shoot a lot of weddings for photographers and all my clients are very happy and all the art directors publishing my work in magazines seem to think it's good enough so I believe I have a good balance.

Interesting perspective you guys have. I like my "art" as do my clients....so I'll focus on my business and more importantly my life.

Cheers,
DJ

I heard a lecture yesterday where the photographer believes that if he is commissioned or hired to photograph, that is his craft. If he is shooting on his own, for his tastes, that is art.

Over the last year of listening to Gary Fong and DJ, I have learned that business is an art as well.

I think weddings can be beautiful and artistic, but I am not an artist, I am a vendor and craftsman (woman).

I believe that you each have beautiful images and satisfied customers, but the longevity of a career will be judged by who balances life with craft and who becomes financially independent through craft.

There are a lot of starving artists.

Not many women posting here.........

Neil, loved the airport video.

Great post Jennifer! Right on!

DJ,
Please understand no where did I say you were not creating art, or that you are not one of the best photographers in the industry. Please do not take what I write so personal. My post was not about you. I do not even know you, but I think you have worked very hard for everything you have, and are one of the best in the industry.
I also believe that this thread concentrated too much on how to do business with the least amount of quality. I think that sends a negative message to new photographers.
Quality is what allows photographers to be successful just as much as business skills. I would hate to think I am in a industry that stresses popularity over quality photography. This thread was dumbing down quality. I believe in becoming the best photographer you can. Not stopping at a point that is just good enough. I am trying to find this middle ground in my own career. I know that there is only some much time in a day. I want to spend as much time as possible with my son, but I want to be a great photographer too. My brides deserve that. I deserve that. How I do that? I am still trying to find the answer.

I understand this thread has made you heated, but I am her for discussion and debate. Not to look down on anyone. everything we do is relative. How do we balance quality and business savvy? You could stay up all night on an image. You could spend 100+ hours on a client. Is it too much?

Honda makes a great product, but if it were bulit by hand it would be much better. Though the CEO of Honda realizes that you cannot make as many cars by hand. So they use machines and some human labor and get a quality product at a good price.
As photographers we have to decide how to deliver quality at a good price. Some things will have to be outsourced, some things will have to be mechanized. Decideing how much is the hard part. That is what I am trying to decide. This is why I am on OSP.

There are companies who build their cars by hand, and they service a particular market that likes that kind of thing. Similarly, there's no one answer to this question. While I think Neil showed a touch of arrogance and disregard to say that he would "show [DJ] up on nearly every level," I don't think he's wrong for wanting to treat each image as a piece of art. I think DJ's work is plenty strong enough to stand on its own--he certainly doesn't need to defend it as art.

Personally, I fall into the more DJesque camp: life is too short. While it's true that a certain level of photographic genius is required to shoot at the level he's shooting, my point is that it's not all about the work. It's about the overall brand experience (to use marketingspeak), and DJ's overall brand experience is tough to beat.

The good work gets you in the door. Your personality gets you the job, the referrals, the friends, the bigger budgets, etc.

$.02

I think we need to broaden our views on what our business is.

I don't think our business is just "providing images." Brides don't just want someone who will provide them with "images" even quality images. They want an experience. Young girls at the age of 12 don't dream of perfectly printed 4x6's taken with 10 MP cameras shot in RAW format. They dream of having the perfect day and remembering it through their photographs. Ultimately in our business we sell emotions. We sell a feeling. I'm NOT saying that quality products and killer images aren't a part of that. They most certainly are. But they are just that.... a part, not the end.

If outsourcing parts of the whole contribute to a better whole then by all means that's the best way to run your business. If by outsourcing your editing, or your album design, or your proofing, so that you personally can contribute to a different aspect of your clients overal experience then that seems like the better idea. Not just from a business standpoint, but from the artists as well, for in the end our "art" isn't just photographs, it's our ability to delicately craft a personal experience for clients.

Word!

Great film photographers would often partner with - collaborate with - great printers. Each brought his strengths to the table to create the final image.

But outsourcing is never used as a synonym for collaboration - it's newspeak for cost- and corner-cutting.

If you mean collaboration or partnership, I'd suggest using one of those words instead.

Great read about outsourcing! But I wish I would have outsourced reading this thread, I just spent all that time reading instead of doing my work. sheeesh...

QUOTE(davidjay @ February 7 2007, 04:49 PM) *
One thing we must all realize is that business and life is a popularity contest. We can fight that or we can accept it and realize that our success is going to be based on whether or not people like us.

I know it's tough to swallow but our success in the business of wedding photography has very little to do with art or photography.

We need to spend less time thinking about our compositions and more time thinking about our disposition. That's what people pay for and that's what separates the people succeeding in our industry from those merely surviving.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Success in the business of Wedding photography has very little to do with art or photography." WHAT?!?!


This is the wrong message to send new photographers. Do you study photography and start a photography business? OR Do you start a photography business then go study photography.

I think wedding photography has A LOT to do with photography and art. We can sit here and allow our industry to get dumbed down to the level of Walmart portrait photographers, or stand up and express you take pride in being a wedding photographer and you are an artist making a living doing something you love.

I understand this is a business and you have to draw the line somewhere. You cannot over work yourself, for no or little porfit. You can balance the art and the business better than some people in this thread are implying.

Common John! See the glass half full at some point! You make it sound like outsourcing is always just for greedy people who are too lazy and cheap to put their full effort into giving a great product!

Why can't you outsource things that anybody could do so that you can specifically focus on things that only you can provide, or so that multiple things get done well. People who outsource effectively realize that you can't do EVERYTHING well. If you try to do everything well, you'll do nothing well.

That's like saying why do football teams have offensive and defensive coordinators? Probably because the head coach is too lazy to fully coach both sides right? Of course, not! It's because while he is ultimately the head coach over everybody he knows he'll be spread to thin if he tries to be fully responsible for all 50 guys on the team. So, he outsources some of his coaching duties to other people.

In our business we need to major on the majors and minor on the minors. Spend time doing the things that really ultimately matter in our business, the things that as I mentioned before will give our clients the best overall experience with us and outsource the things that take time and that won't contribute as much to that experience.

You missed what he said....he didn't say Wedding photography has little to do with art or photography....he said SUCCESS in the BUSINESS of wedding photography has very little to do with art or photography.

And don't we see this all the time? Great photographers who are barely getting by. Mediocre photographers who are making $10,000 per shoot. Why is that?

There's nothing wrong with being an excellent photographer. We should all strive to be that! Nobody is saying otherwise! Just realize that being an excellent photographer isn't what will ultimately make you successful in the business. Knowing how to take excellent pictures will make you an excellent photographer. A good understanding of how businesses works will make you successful in business. The goal is to know how to do both, and the truly successful people in our industry do.

DJ,
Here's a couple of questions for you and others that outsource. As someone "very" new to the biz side of photography, I'm not really finacially at the point where I can outsource. I'm also not at the point to decide what to outsource.

SO, my question is, when did you start to outsource? What drove you to decide to outsource and how did you decide which things to keep doing yourself and which to have others do.

Another question, was there some things that you did outsource and it didn't work out and you had to take it back over?

Reading through all this I realize there are different business models and guys and gals like me just starting out read all of your opinions as we try to figure out just what type of business model we want to realize. It may get a little heated on here from time to time but that just tells me that there is a lot of passion on here, which is a good thing in my opinion. So keep up these good discussions cause we're watching you!

Sorry, I'll clarify. Every level of formal art criticism. DJ, I don't know about any of your work for magazine art directors - can you point me to some? I didn't know you did any editorial work.

And David can show me up on every level of marketing and business acumen as well as number of friends - my point was the contrast. I'll hire you to do my marketing in trade for me doing your post

I edited my post. Even with the words "Success in the business" the concept is the same.
The success of my business has A LOT to do with photography and art. Just as much as it has to do with good business skills. BUT That is not what is being stated on this thread. It is being said that being popular is MORE important than being a good photographer. I disagree. I believe being a high quality photographer will make you popular. There is a better balance.

It's the real message...and I think *the art* of wedding photography has improved a hundred fold over the past 10 years so I think the more real and honest we are the better it will get. Again, I'm not stating my opinion - I'm stating a fact so you can continue to fight it and struggle or accept it.


Thanks Chris - this is exactly right and it's important that people read what I wrote and understand that I'm talking about business here.

Great question - checkout this post and here's a couple of nuggets from it straight from Jeff Jochum.



Another good question - I started building my own website and then outsourced my second one but now I'm taking back over and building my third one on my own. I think that's something that I should be in control of because I consider it so directly linked with my reputation and marketing.

Yea I agree there are different approaches but be careful thinking that all roads lead to the same place. Like I stated above there are certain things that are FACTS in business and in life and although some people will passionately fight against them I encourage you to look around and look at people who have businesses and lives like the one you want to live and then model your business and life after them.


Cover of Professional Photographer, Studio Photography and Design, InStyle, Rangefinder, American Photo...should I go on?

Thanks for the offer but apparently most people like the way I do it.

With all due respect I think you are wrong...You can be the best photographer in the world or have the best product in the world and nobody could know who you are and thus you are worth nothing.

If all people want is to be an artist than move to france and you'll probably wind up going crazy and cutting your ear off. If you want a good life than understand that life IS a popularity contest and I'll quote our chief love cat Tim Sanders when he says "if you so foolishly say, "if this is a popularity contest you can count me out - I have one word for you - LOSER" ...again those aren't even my words they are coming from Tim Sanders so understand that being likable and being popular is what's it's all about - It doesn't matter how good your pictures are if people don't like you and know about you then they are worthless.

Sorry to come off really strong but I think these are the facts.

Cheers,
DJ

Actually, Erich, I think _you_ may be sending out the wrong message to new photographers. Ironically, the Art Institute of Indianapolis invited me over yesterday to talk about the curriculum of a new degree they're going to offer in digital photography. When I surveyed the courses of art theory, color theory, sketching, design, advanced design, history of photography, etc. I noticed they only had 4 or 5 business-related classes.

I told them the biggest thing I see photographers struggling with is their ability to run a business. They don't understand contracts. They don't understand branding. They don't understand marketing, advertising, people skills, customer service, bookkeeping, liability insurance, profit and loss, etc.

I asked her if their goal was to produce starving artists, who knew their craft inside and out; or to produce working artists who could get a job when they got out of school.

I'm not poo-pooing the artistry of photography. But, to answer your question, I didn't study photography at all until 3 years ago _after_ I started my wedding photography business. I saw it as an opportunity to get out of the nightmare job I was in (advertising, feh.) and I just reckoned I could figure the photography thing out as I went. It's worked out wonderfully.

I love a good photo, and I love making exceptional photos for my clients; but more than that, I love servicing my clients in such a way that they couldn't have imagined anything I might have done better for them. I realize there are pictures that are more likely to win competitions based on their composition, etc. But the ones I'm most proud of are the ones that my clients cry over. It may be a boring shot of a brother and sister hugging, or a nice capture of a father toasting the bride--but for my clients, those shots would win any award they could come up with.

I think we have to shake this mindset that it's primarily about the ART and that if you do that well, you'll succeed. You may succeed in your personal quest for self-achievement and advancement, but it's not often that such quests also bring you uber-happy clients and piles of money to support your family with. By understanding our clients, and what we can do to knock it out of the park for them (yes, good photography is included in that!), that's what will make your business succeed.

As always: $.02

DJ.
I value all that you are saying. I totally understand the value of being popular. Again, I believe this thread focused TOO much on being popular. It is not the ONLY key to success. The balance is off in my opinion.

Why can you not be popular and an artist? Why must I leave the country to be a popular artist?

I believe popularity and quality go hand in hand. You cannot be the most popular with out being very talented.

There is no such thing as a popular, low quality photographer.

I am not fighting you or your facts. It is not in my nature. I am just trying to point out that clients do value art and composition. I am trying to focus the thread on how do we BALANCE art and business. You seem to feel that art is secondary in this business. I believe it is more equal. And if I were just starting out as a photographer, and read this thread I would say "why master my exposures and composition, Pictage will fix them." That is not the right message. I believe your facts are more opinion than you are leading us to believe.

Another great quote when it comes to the popularity issue...

"All things being equal,
people want to do business with their friends.
All things being not quite equal,
people STILL want to do business with their friends."
-from Jeffery Gitomer's book "Little Black Book of Connections

You can substitute out "friends" in this quote with the idea of being likable or "popular."

This the first balanced post so far. You agree that you sould learn how to be a quality photographer and have good business skills.

Though, I never said it is primarily the about the art.
I believe the art is part of success, just as much as good business skills. One is not more important than the other is the exact piont I have been trying to make.

+1. Or in swan speak...

word.

Really??? ...so you're saying that all the "popular" photographers are of high quality.




Word! X2 for SwanMan

I have an idea. How about everyone runs their business how they see fit? There's no one answer to this. Neil is successful as an artist first, businessperson WAY second. DJ is successful as a businessperson first. There are more levels.

It all goes back to the article I wrote awhile ago:
Article

Neil = Artiste
DJ = Businessperson
Jim Kennedy = Worker Bee

It's the OTHER types that don't work. The followers, so-sos, confused, uneducateds, and hobbyists.

The above 3 are ALL viable business models. Obviously.

Which is Joe Buissink? Mike Colon? Yervant? Gino? Mitche Graf? Me? You?

The businesspeople (me, swan, DJ) are always going to agree that it's the best way to do it. The artistes will never see the exact same thing working for them and if they tried it would not do as well as they will doing it their way. The workers just want & NEED volume. Doing 50 at $2000 is more money than doing 10 at $9,000 but you don't see DJ going after 200 weddings a year. He's about time - freedom. That's cool, that works. For those who want the maximum total profit, maybe there's another way.

M

YES.
How many photographers do you know deliver 2+ stops underexposed work, and are super popular?

With clients or other photographers?

Thank you Matt!!!
These are all opinions on how to run a business. NOT FACTS!

Good post Matt

In going back and rereading I think a lot of people are linking an automated/outsourced (low involvement) workflow with low quality.

I think most artists and a lot of poorly educated businesses people think they have to work hard to create value so when they hear photographers not working hard they think they're producing a less quality product and it pisses them off because they are working so hard and not really creating any value. This creates bitterness and resentment for others people's succees.

Work smart - not hard. ...and do the things that should be done instead of the things that "could" be done.

I still love the quote that started this thread.

There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all.

either one.

besides myself?

Actually, a lot of what are being bantered about here _are_ facts. A good chunk of it is opinion, too, but I wouldn't chalk it all up to that.

Outsourcing is not just a way to cut corners. I could probably do my own taxes, but it would take me a lot longer and I would probably have a lot more mistakes than if I take my financials to someone who specializes in preparing taxes.

I think DJ hit it on the head. People equate working less hard with providing less value or quality. I run into that all the time when I tell people I can design 80 pages of a wedding album in about 3 hours. The people that spend 40 hours HAVE to make themselves feel better by saying, "well, his quality won't be as good as mine... I take the proper amount of care and time designing my albums."

I hear it all the time with post-processing. I open only a small fraction of my images in Photoshop, but the crowd who edits every single image in PS insists that because they are taking more time, the product will be better.

It's faulty logic, wrapped up in an emotional defense that someone who works less hard than you do can't possibly produce an equal or better product.

This thread, and OSP, rocks!

Almost two years ago we moved from Hawaii to St. Louis. I thought my photogrphaphy business was done. From one single client post on a forum we had several emails waiting for us when we finally turned the computer on, asking to meet us about wedding photography. I was amazed at the time.

I happily agreed to meet everyone who wrote, but had to explain that I didn't have any prints or albums to show them and that they would have to judge us by our website, which was hosted by Smugmug (i.e. not custom).

I can safely say we were hired not because of our art, but because they liked and trusted us very much (being inexpensive I'm sure had something to do with it as well).

Since then, we've generated a lot of forum raving but the interesting thing is it comes as much from our meetings as it does from our photography. In other words, people like us (my wife shoots with me). Clients like us so much, that we've survive two price increases in excess of 100% each (our min now >$3000), which we knew we had to do to be viable (and stem the flow of inquiries!!).

BUT, they can also sense that we're giving the art side of the business our 100% attention and effort. We've had several comment about how excited we get talking about their weddings and the photography. So, it is about balance, of course.

With that said, I can safely say my thirst for knowledge in this industry has been more on the business side, and not so much on the art side, because, well, the art part is part of me and who I am. The business side....I'm not so good at.

I can easily see where an inefficient workflow could quickly make it impossible for me to deliver ANY kind of art, let alone awesome photographs.

I'm not ready to agree with 100% of DJ's (and others) views on outsourcing, but I can certainly see the argument!

This is an awesome thread.

Michael

Life is a popularity contest—


I my humble 1980s opinion, I think a lot of the angst on this thread stems from which group we feel we were a part of in high school—

the popular kids

or the antithesis of popular kids (the larger group).

Generally photographers were nerds— smarter, quieter, non-jocks; definitely behind the scenes.

We wore black and moved the set for the school musical, we did not sing in the lead.

We worked for the yearbook or school newspaper staff.

That means we interviewed or were asked to shoot the cheerleaders, the jocks and the stars of the school plays.

Then we all scurried back into our beloved darkroom, together, listening to Rush and Sting (he was punk-rock, you know!) and Blu-Oyster Cult (sooooo '80s).

We had the best time of our lives in those darkrooms.

We made friends for life there.

We might have fallen in love there (me .)

We collaborated and gossiped about how silly the poplular kids were, which gave us a feeling of acceptance and community.


We were the photographers, the antitheses of the poplular kids.


This thread is NOT about that.

It is about marketing being 90% of this job.

It is about fantastically talented photographers working at Kinko's.

It is about 40+ year old photographers burning out or losing their family because of workaholic-ness.

Love this thread! See ya at WPPI!

There's a photographer less than 20 miles from you who charges $800, has for 3 years, shoot-to-burn and from their website shoots probably 80 a year. $64,000 with almost no overhead. They're REALLY popular on places like The Knot. I am not mentioning names for fear of google but there's almost no way you don't know who I mean. lol

M

For fear of Google. Hahah. I want a TShirt that says, "I fear Google." Someone make one and bring it to WPPI!



Drink more of the cool-aid. You'll come around...

I'm working 12 hours a day to overcome the workaholic-ness. That's why OSP is so valuable because of the constant reminder that there MAY be a better way to do it.


Man, I've already had way to much of your Mac cool-aid. Now I'm having to check out new $2500 laptops (MBP).

[quote name='swan' post='101334' date='March 21 2007, 09:27 AM']For fear of Google. Hahah. I want a TShirt that says, "I fear Google." Someone make one and bring it to WPPI!

I like the way this thread has turned out toward the end. In the begining it was full of emotions.

There is no one way to do things. No magic formula. You need to be popular. You need to be good at what you do. You need to work hard, and you need to work smart. Markets and populations in those markets are different. The balance and amount of what we do, and when we do it is what will give us our identity in this very competitive industry.

Money, popularity, success, is not everything. Feeling good about what you are doing and who you are is much more important. In my OPINION.

Well, I am off to France.