If been booked for a Commitment Ceremony between Two men.
The question is. Do I shoot this ceremony the same as a regular ceremony?
Or is there some type of etiquette for this type of ceremony?
Thanks in advance for any advice.

Linda

OH tough question!

I've never shot anything like that so I can't answer, but I think the easiest way would be to ask your clients. Of course you want to show them respect and I think they'll respond just fine to you asking...I would assume it would be the same but I dunno...

- poor guys - they're missing out on the goods God created for'em!

I'm glad this topic came up, as it is something that my wife and I have talked about. DJ or anyone else.... How do you all plan on dealing with this issue of gay unions when it comes your way? I have strong feelings about this issue, not to mention a Moral Code to uphold. Something tells me that this could really start to become a big issue in the not too distant future, and let's just say that you might only find me and my wife doing portrait photography at that point. Think of the lawsuits that we could run into for turning down a gay wedding???

Nathan

Can someone tell me why this is even an issue?? It's 2005, folks. We don't live in a 100% straight, white, religious world. Why would you turn down an opportunity to learn more about people who may have a few differences than what you are used to (although, I believe that all people have many more similarities than differences). Would you turn down a Hindu wedding? A Muslim wedding? A black couple? A white couple? A mixed-race couple? A Canadian couple?

I certainly hope not. Why would you turn down a same-sex couple? If we don't step out of our comfort zones, we will never learn and grow as photographers and as people. I have never photographed a same-sex ceremony, but I have one booked for two women in May of this year and I am actually looking forward to it! Maybe I'm in the minority here (and I hope not), but I respect ALL people equally, even if I disagree with them.

Just my two cents . . . take 'em or leave 'em

::Brian

QUOTE ( David Jay)

OH tough question!

...am I allowed to quote myself? haha.

I have had many conversations about this but there really is no easy answer. I agree with Brian that no matter what we believe WE MUST RESPECT ALL PEOPLE NO MATTER WHAT!!! That's the bottom line!

I have had gay friends, heck...a lot of people think I'm gay! Neither of which bother me. My belief as a Christian is that a wedding/marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman. A "civil union" is a legal ceremony to ensure that these people are afforded the same legal rights as I am. I think it has become a big deal lately because the government wouldn't give "life partners" the same benefits as married couples so they've had to go to these lengths to get those rights.

The act of documenting is a morally neutral act so I personally would not have a problem documenting one of these events, just as I would have no problem documenting a Hindu or Muslim wedding - but - I would prefer to shoot a Christian wedding! I feel like God calls me to love people and reflect who He his through what I do - I don't feel called to refuse my services to them simply because I don't agree with the lifestyle they are living. I know others who do and that's ok - If God is moving you that way then follow his lead. The way He works is so much bigger than us we can't even pretend to understand it - our job is just to seek and obey.

btw - Nathan - as far as I know you can't get sued for turning down a civil union ceremony or refusing to hire a gay person - the media leads us to believe that they are a protected people group but they are not. You can refuse service to anyone - heck - I often refuse my services to the worst people group of all - the rich white folk!

I think this is a great conversation to have and as long as we all respect each other then let's keep having it! You all know how crazy people can get on forums because these environments don't always encourage civil discussions - I understand we all believe different stuff and that's ok - let's all be cool and seek to understand each other.

Blessings to you all!
DJ

Hey Guys,
It's Geekette again...

I think that Nathan and I are fairly tolerant people as well... I have had gay friends, and ascribe strongly to the thought process of truly loving others and befriending them- no matter what the situation. We surely don't have the "hate the sinner" mentality that is so prevalent here in the Bible Belt

But...

To me (I won't speak for Nathan here), photographing a wedding is somehow more than just merely documentation. Although I have thus far felt comfortable being present in a variety of different situations, there are some that I just feel might not be the place for me.
One of those is same-sex unions. I somehow feel that by putting my artistic blessing on the day, I would be condoning the union.
I also wouldn't feel completely comfortable with some of the "pagan" ceremonies that exist out there. Do I really want to be a part of a Wiccan Ceremony? As a Christian, can I justify my participation in such? Or maybe I am misinformed. (I do get much too much information from wedding chat boards as I am stuck in corporate America, with nothing to do but surf the net )

Now, all this to say, none of these are such big issues at this time in our area. We are in the South... and most of the weddings out here are "Christian". So at this time, I think it is a moot point for us. But we talk about it. And we wonder what we will do when the time comes.

I enjoy the opportunity to throw these things out there for you guys to help us hash through...

Keep the opinions coming!

As David would say,
Cheers!

Nikon Geekette
(having a baby in three weeks )

Brian, you mentioned that "this is 2005, etc." The year doesn't really matter when it comes to moral beliefs that we believe are unchanging and true no matter what. The Bible is pretty clear about homosexuality. But let me clarify something that you and DJ referred to. This issue does not have ANYTHING to do with respecting gay people. There's a difference between having a preference/belief and being a jerk to someone, and my position is the former. I have worked with a number of gay people in my past life as a retail person, and they are GREAT PEOPLE!!!!!!!!! There was one person in particular that my wife and I (we were just dating then) developed a friendship with. We also just moved into our new home/office in a nice neighborhood where a couple of our neighbors are gay partners.

All that to say, I hope you don't put me in a category with people who show outward animosity toward the gay community. I have my belief system, and DJ put in nicely when he said that the guys being photographed at this ceremony were "missing out," but ultimately, gay people are just that - people!

DJ, you had a good point. Documenting a ceremony is a neutral action, and there is also no real difference between documenting a Hindu wedding which is different than our belief system and documenting a gay ceremony which differs from our belief system. It's food for thought - thanks for bringing those points up...


Nathan

....actually... I don't know (personally) if they are missing out - but I trust my married friends that they are!

I'll try to answer your original question - I would shoot it like any other ceremony or any other people. Posing any 'couple' and being comfortable with them depends on how you hit it off with them. Sometimes this just happens (usually during the first interview), or sometimes it takes effort to befriend someone. And when the ice is broken you should be able to ask/tell/joke about most things.

Speaking for myself though, I'd probably be cracking myself up the whole time coz I'll end up saying something like "now look into each others' eyes and... asasl;djahahahHAHAHA" - I know a few gay people and they try to tease me, so I know how to tease them as well. (just trying to keep the mood light in here)

Well .. I was not going to bring up the moral issues I had with this wedding. As a matter of fact my thoughts are live and let live.
However on the other hand my husband was livid that I accepted this assignment.
He believes that if the public were to find out I would be black balled in the community.
And the sad truth is he is correct. I live in the mid-west the Bible belt.
What makes me sad is that no matter how beautiful this wedding turns out to be I can never display the images in my studio or web site etc.
When I met these gentlemen the were an absolute riot. During the consultation we or should I say “I” had many nervous moments.
When it came time to fill out the contract it asks for the “Bride” and “Groom”…
I must have had a strange look because they started teasing each other about who was going to be the “BiT*&”
I was rolling laughing.
Then they were talking about the reception.. And I asked if they had picked out their cake yet..
They looked at each other and said. “Humm what kind of cake do you have at a gay ceremony?” the second one said a “nut cake”
And the other replied “No a Fruit cake”..
I was in tears from laughing. These guys were so fun to be around.. I knew then that I could do this ceremony. Even though I don’t believe in their life style. They deserve the same respect and dignity that anyone else that comes to me for my art does.
The truth of the matter is it’s not for me to judge them. I believe that the reason God has put us on this earth is for each other.
And one of the greatest gifts God has given each one of us is the gift of choice.
And I choose to treat each and every individual I come into contact with the same love and kindness that God has shown me.
I’m so blessed to have you all to turn to for professional guidance. And I respect each and every one of you for your candid thoughts and feelings.
I hope you think long and hard before you decide on your stance regarding this issue.
I’m sure it will present itself during your career as a Photographer.

((((Group Hug)))))

Hey guys,

Politics and religion and all issues related to them will ALWAYS be controversial (heck, they are the reasons why we've had so many wars). If they weren't, then we'd live in a boring world.

People come in all shapes and sizes and with all kinds of beliefs. It is my life model and my business model to accept them all. Maybe that works for you and your business, and maybe it doesn't.

And just so you know, I mean no disrespect to Nathan and DJ and any others. I was nervous about my original post, because I don't think this is necessarily the forum for discussing such weighty issues. My goal was just to get you to think about a few things.

You are all my friends in the photography community and I am really thrilled about DJ's awesome forum.

The only reason why I bring up the year is to put things in perspective (because things change in society over time) Heck, 40 years ago in the South, many people thought it was morally wrong for black people to drink from the same fountain as white people. Obviously time has changed these views (most people would say for the better).

::Brian

Linda,

That's a funny story. I actually modified my contract to say "Bride and Bride" for the same-sex wedding that I'm photographing this spring. I wonder what kind of cake they will have?!?

Thanks for the group hug . . . it was needed

It's a heavy topic, and certainly can be divisive. I'm leaning toward the Nikon Geekette's earlier reply in this thread. She eloquently stated that putting her artistic blessing on the day would somehow condone the union. As a Christian, I know God's stance on the issue of homosexuality. I was recently asked by a lesbian couple to document their committment ceremony. Before responding, I discussed it with my wife. We came to the conclusion that if I shot the event as I would any other, and the couple loved the images, it may be possible to later bring up my faith in conversation with them. They might be surprised that a Christian was not judgemental in offering to photograph their special day. Instead, maybe they'd see Christ through my work. We never reached the point of booking a date for them, but I'm somewhat relieved because I really think it just would have been an uncomfortable situation.
Having said that, let me also share that my younger brother died of AIDS a few years ago. We had a great relationship, even though our views/beliefs differed. He was just a cool, reserved, gentle guy (and a good athlete) who would have never been picked out of a crowd as "gay". When he was sick in the hospital, he asked me a lot of questions about God and salvation that we never really connected on previously. I simply shared the Gospel truth with him and he decided for himself that he needed to be forgiven. Shortly before he died, he asked me to pray with him, and he accepted Christ as his Savior. So. . .the point is that despite our Christian beliefs, we can't completely disassociate ourselves from people who don't have the same convictions. Because you never know when God will give you the opportunity to step into a person's life and share the Gospel with an unbeliever.
Christopher

I'm glad this topic has not gone into finger pointing, I love this forum for that. We can all have a civil discussion and not let it turn into something ugly.

Linda, I'm not sure if you have had your questions answered or not, so here's my take on it.

You asked, "Do I shoot this ceremony the same as a regular ceremony?"

My feeling on this is that they hired you for the work you have done in the past. They have seen what you have done, and they liked that. Unless they have made, or do make any special requests, I think that you need to shoot this ceremony as you would any other.

I also agree with DJ's first post, if you do have any concerns, definitely drop them a line and ask. I think they would only respect you all the more for doing so ahead of time.

I wish you the best of luck with shooting this wedding, I hope you create some beautiful images for them and I truly hope that you don't get black balled in your community for this, that would be very sad.

Definitely let us know how it all goes and if there was anything different that you needed to know for this ceremony.

I love you all!

I had a bunch to do today so I'm just jumping back in, and I admit I was really nervous to read all the posts because everyone knows the direction this thread would have gone on any other forum! Thanks to all of you for being who you are! I was really encouraged and inspired after reading everyone's honest questions and respectful responses.

I'm incredibly blessed and challenged by all of you!
DJ

p.s. ...and Tim - you crack me up! Always keeping things on track! What would I do without you!

"They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." John 17:16

As we all know the Lord has given us some specific instructions while on earth, and I feel that if we live openly for the Lord He will not bring us more than we can handle. I can't tell you right now what I would do or say if this were to happen to me. I do know that I would be on my knees praying of these people, as I do for all the possible jobs that are brought our way.
So I guess you could say I'm not one to debate, but I don't feel this issue is so black and white. I really think the Lord will lead you right where He NEEDS you!

Blessings,
Tricia

P.S. As I was in the Grinder reading all the posts Dane walked in and said he is ready to respond to this one! So Dane can't wait to hear what you have to say.

What's the Grinder?

The coffee grinder in the promise land of Carpinteria

You know, thinking about this issue, it's interesting. Marriage is a Christian sacrament. Does this mean we should refuse our services for those who aren't Christians if they are getting married in a church?

It's an interesting debate that I'll be interested to see where the Christian wedding photographer crowd lands.

I do agree with the previous comment that our not doing the services will come off as our being judgmental and could damgae our image as Christians....

Food for thought....

I feel to deny anyone is wrong, but you should pray, before they pay, so you can say nay!
Yes as a christian we have a standard to uphold, but we also have to show the light to the world(I mean you wouldn't hid your little light under a bowl would you?).
Yes definetly something to munch on Chris!
Tricia

QUOTE (DAVID JAY @ Feb 22 2005, 12:32 PM)

....actually... I don't know (personally) if they are missing out - but I trust my married friends that they are!

Trust me, DJ, they're missing out!

I'm not married, but I agree with Greg on this one....

You guys are great.

I really appreciate being able to get all of the feedback from you all. (That's "ya'll" down here )

It sometimes becomes difficult to determine where you
- stand up for what you believe (i.e.- not participating in a same sex union because of your personal moral beliefs)
OR
- show Christ's love by respecting people, and possibly having the opportunity to win them to Him through our love.

Yep, lots and lots to chew on.
And Brian is right- we do become a wee bit doublestandardy (completely made up that word) when we say that we will work a Muslim wedding, but not a same sex union.

I don't think it is really a debateable point, I think it may just come down to personal conviction that may be difficult to explain. No decision on my end at this time... this conversation has given me alot to think about.

Again, I love this forum. It's wonderful that all of you have been able to discuss this so openly, yet no one has stepped out of line!

Amber the Geekette.

I am also so glad this conversation hasn't come to finger pointing and name calling. This is such a tough question that we will all someday deal with and I'm glad this forum exists and lets people explore these issues.