Ok heres the deal... I've been comissioned by some family friends to do senior portraits for their daughter and also a family portait of their whole crew (a total family of nine!) and here is my dilemma... I don't really do either styles of photos often... I've done some as gifts for friends and stuff but never charged them. And since I am shooting film it is obviously gonna be more for processing and then getting prints made.

So, what do I charge?? Here are some of the parameters of my shoots...

--- I will be shooting slide film and cross processing (four rolls for the senior portrait & four rolls for the family)
--- The family will be given a proof sheet to check out and choose images from

So since I am taking this on all on my own do I add the processing fees and film into what I charge and then do the print package on top of that??

HELP!!!

--- Gregg

My advice is to not think about what that "style" of photo traditionally is, but instead to shoot it how you want it! There's a reason they are asking you to shoot it so put yourself into the shot!

Here's a couple of shots I did for these families Christmas cards. This first little guy loved his dogs so we went outside and let him hangout and play with the dogs. They loved the first image and printed out lots of them for their cards!





This second family had a darling little girl who was the sweetest thing you could ever imagine...she also loved her dog so we let her just sit and be mellow and we got this beautiful shot of her just being herself. They also ordered lots! The second image is just a simple family shot - quick - easy - casual. Santa Barbara style!





As far as pricing we charge a flat $150 for the shoot and then sell the images for $7 (4x6) - $120 (16x20) so most of the money is made on the backend selling the smaller prints. We'll probably restructure our pricing a bit because I think we can get tons more for the larger prints and I think we should offer some discounts for mass orders like Christmas cards and stuff like that.

Definitely include whatever costs you're incurring into the package. My philosophy is to look at things backwards...I decide how much I want to net for my time on any given day and then I figure out what I need to charge to meet that. So whether I'm shooting a wedding or doing a little Christmas photo I end up netting about the same per hour. Basically it's just having a standard for yourself. If you're going to work for someone else then how much do you want for that. I'm a stubborn SOB and I don't like having to show up to work for someone else...that's one of the reasons I charge what I do.


DJ

DJ --- You are amazing man!! Thanks so much for the help. I've got a bunch of ideas for the shoots for the senior portraits for their daughter... She has told me she might also like to use some of these for an acoustic CD she's recording. I said we'd have to talk about usage rights for that, but it might be a possibility.

I have a couple of ideas for the family but more for the senior portraits.

Ok also I am using the Kodak E100VS slide film for the shoots @ $14 (roughly) a roll. Shooting four roll on each package would add sixty dollars to the price plus developing for cross processing & the contact sheet. So I'm thinking roughly it's gonna add about another $132 per package with the processing. Does that sound about right?

And with the family having a total of nine any idea of what size of lens you would use?

And much thanks again David!

These are the lenses I have right now:

-- A 70-300mm
-- A 50mm fixed
-- A 28-80mm
-- 28mm fixed

Would you suggest any of these or would I need to get another lens? I was thinking about using the 70-300. What do you think?

--- Gregg

And DJ --- Do you always use sloppy borders on your photos?

--- Gregg

David, I can't believe I actually charge more for something than you do! We used to charge separate prices for color, b&w, and combination shoots, but we are just combining the it all into one package now for 220.00. The client gets 20 4x6 proofs in a nice Art Leather proof album.

My biggest questions here would be why do you need to shoot 4 rolls per session? Why not narrow it down to 2 rolls per shoot, 72 pictures each, and you would still have plenty of pictures to choose from in the end? That would save a good bit on your cost!

If you are going to shoot for this girl's cd, keep in mind the cropping that will be done for the cd when you are framing your pictures!

A 50mm lense will do the trick for the family shot (or 35mm if shooting digitally with a 1.5 crop factor). 50mm is considered the closest to "normal" perspective (no wide-angle distortion), and yet it isn't such a long focal length that you would be shouting to the group while doing the shoot.

Good luck with the shoot, and let us see some of the finished product!

Nathan

Nathan --- Thanks... You da man!!

And much thanks to all here, I've never been in a forum that has been so helpful and generous with advice... and so friendly too!!! I'd love to meet all of ya one day!!

--- Gregg

Nathan --- Where do you get your leather proof albums??

--- Gregg

The books are done by Art Leather (by the way, I don't use the book shown in the picture with the gold trim! Yuck!). The cover on the books are an imitation leather, but are great quality. A book costs me about 35.00 +/- .

Image is a big deal to me, and I'd rather have the extra cost of giving our clients the proofs in a book as opposed to loose or a cheesy folio.

Nathan

Nathan ---- Thanks for the tip... I'll have to look into those!

--- Gregg

haha! Sloppy borders - always!

Good job Nathan! You're a stud! Keep raising those prices - you're worth it!

I usually use the longest lens possible unless I'm going for something artsy and I try to get as much separation between the subject and background as I can because people love blown out backgrounds...it's just an easy way to simplify the image. The good shooters can use their surroundings better and don't take the easy way out like me! I'm working on it though!

Ummm, DJ, you are way too humble -- Your work is incredible!



Just one question for you . . . how can you be a "$150 portrait photographer" and a "$10,000 wedding photographer" at the same time? Are you only doing discounted portrait shoots for your wedding clients? Is your portrait time worth exponentially less than your wedding time? Is there something I'm not understanding here? Please help!!

Brian

Thanks Brian!

It's all about the backend in the portrait business - I netted around $800 for both of those shoots...and they're still ordering! Sorry to mislead anyone...

my target right now is to make $1000/hr when on assignment so these portrait shoots take about an hour and I know I can make a huge chunk on the backend so I price them low and put the pressure on myself to perform and get pictures they want - then the power is in my court and they'll order and order and order!

I have a friend who I met while in New Orleans (Brian met him too) David Salomone, who treats his wedding business the same way and is super successful doing so. Both business models can work and I wouldn't say that one is better than the other I've just chosen to do things this way because I think it fits my personality better.

IMHO - front end prices are more about image building and branding than they are wealth building...you can make way more $$$ selling things on the backend - but you gotta sell it - I suck at that.

You're a pimp, A PIMP

Thank you, DJ. That explanation helps a lot! My current average portrait session sale is going for about 1/8 of the price of my current average wedding sale, so I'm in a similar boat as you.

I love shooting weddings . . . but . . . for me, portrait sessions are less work, less stress, and more fun (and a welcome change of pace). I also do much less portrait work than wedding work.

I suck royally at selling, especially on the back-end.

"Hi Jack and Jill, you already spent $X,XXX on your wedding photography package, how about another album for only $X,XXX and two beautiful framed prints for only $X,XXX?"

It's not my bag, baby. Part of me wishes I was better at it, part of me doesn't.

I keep thinking that if I had a studio/meeting location it would be easier for me to sell products, because I would be able to display them. Maybe I should try to hire Salomone to sell for me!

For now, my model of doing everything on location and meeting in my clients' homes is working for me.


:: Brian "still hoping for my first celebrity wedding" Adams

OK.... So here's what happened... I shot photos of their daughter for the senior portraits already (shot some on the fixed 28mm and some on the 50mm)... They have had to reschedule the family portrait shoot a couple of time with people in the family getting sick, so we haven't gotten to that yet (that's what happens in a family of nine at flu season ). I ended up charging a flat rate of 180 for each shoot and gave them a little art portfolio of 10 images of her choice from the shoot... They are going to be getting back to me with what they want to get from their daughter's shoot this next week.

So now on to my questions...

David --- You said that most of your money is made in the sales of prints... and I know you said that you prices range from $7 for a 4x6 print to $120 for a 16x20... Is ther any way I can see a more detailed listing of what you charge for your prints so I can get an idea of what I should charge? I am definitely gonna factor in my time to take these print to get developed too as I don't live to close to where I get my film developed, but I still don't want to rake them over the coals. No easy jaunt to Samy's for me! I have a half hour drive to Denver to get my film developed.

Nathan --- On those portfolios from Art Leather, are you buying them in bulk or just one at a time as you need them? I'd like to look into it, but for now I don't really have the money to put into something like that right now (which the family I did the shoot for understands)... I'm definitely gonna keep them in mind though.

Thanks again for all your help!!!


--- Gregg

Hey guys... any feedback???

Yo!

My portrait prices pretty much double with every standard size:

• 4x6 - $7
• 5x7 - $15
• 8x10 - $30
• 11x14 - $60
• 16x20 - $120
• 20x30 - $240

...there are more sizes they can order but this is the jist of it...

Film bad - Digi Good

c'mon now, DJ . . . if it wasn't for film . . .


how about this . . .


film good digi good

LOL - alright alright

how about this...

film good - digi REALLY good!

Hey now DJ!! If it wasn't for film we would be anywhere close to where we are with digital... Probably wouldn't even have it!

But, this is why I am setting my price list, so that I can go digital soon, I hope

--- Gregg

You guys know I'm just teasing you right? Something you'll learn about me is that I take pleasure in picking fights!

...I do love film though! (I use it to decorate my apt) ...but you're right...if it wasn't for film we wouldn't even have photography!

Film - Digital - Mac - PC - I don't care what people use as long as they're cool and smart about their business!

Heck Yeah, baby!

Amen to that, brotha.

Hey guys... one question.. Do you think what I charged was fair? I mean I'm factoring in that I have to drive a half an hour each way to the lab, the film, the developing, and the prints. So do you think the price I charged was good??

-- Gregg

QUOTE (oneblankcanvas @ Feb 15 2005, 12:01 PM)

Do you think what I charged was fair?

My dear friend...

"Fair"

Only your clients can decide that.

What you can charge really doesn't have anything to do with how much time you put in or how good your work is...BUT...the further the gap between expectation and reality the higher the probability of unsatisfied clients - that's the risk of hype!

Don't feel bad for charging a lot! They'll decide if you're worth it!

p.s. ALWAYS raise your prices!

...it's a way of thanking your past clients!

A little off-topic, but still relevant . . .

Kevin Kubota told us about his print pricing philosophy at Imaging USA last month . . . he charges the SAME PRICE for 4x6s, 5x7s, and 8x10s, because he's doing the same amount of work and it only costs him a few cents difference for creating each size print.

It's certainly interesting, and it makes sense when you think about it.

There is little to no consistency in pricing prints. There are high-end photographers charging $20 for an 8x10 and there are high-end photographers charging $200 for an 8x10.

What it comes down to is: what is the value of your creation/your art/your skill/your expertise/your time?

Don't view your prices from your perspective, view them from your clients' perspective. You may never be able to justify hiring a photographer at your prices, but to your clients, it may be pocket change.

Oh yeah, as DJ says, always raise your prices! You should be constantly becoming more experienced, more polished, and more improved (in photography, and in business). DJ wrote in this forum about doubling his rates every year and being quite successful with it. Personally, my rates are 1.5x what they were last year at this time. If your rates stay the same, that says to me (and my clients) that you not continuing to learn and to grow!

. . . just my two cents.

Good Luck!

Brian

I think that makes sense and although it's not the most entrepreneurial thing to do it definitely teaches people to pay us for our creativity, which I think is the right way to go!

I like this thread! Lots of good points and things to think about!

The benefit I see of Kubota's system is it allows for a level of consistency in terms of the total amount ($$$) made per shoot. The drawback to Kubota's system is that it significantly limits how much you can make!

I want to stess that I'm all for people having their own philosphies and ways of running their business! I love it when people do things differently b/c it makes us all think. Learn - Think - and then Do what works for You!

QUOTE (DAVID JAY @ Feb 15 2005, 02:19 PM)

...the further the gap between expectation and reality the higher the probability of unsatisfied clients.

I like this!!

Are these your own words, DJ?

If so, major props to you!!

David, do you use Pictage proofing for your portrait shoots?

Thanks for the info guys!!!

--- Gregg

QUOTE (Greg Coates @ Feb 15 2005, 03:27 PM)

David, do you use Pictage proofing for your portrait shoots?

I'm wanting to move that way!

They often need prints so quick that I don't have time to go the PICtage route, and being that we're about 50 yards from a great lab it's not too difficult for me to post up the pics like this - Quick Portrait Page - and then email them over to the lab for a 24hr turnaround.

PICtage is ideal though - then they can keep ordering without bothering you!

So what is this Pictage thing you keep talking about??

--- Gregg

PICtage is AMAZING! They are a difficult company to describe because they do SO much:

Click here - PICtage

Here's the jist:

Pictage is the complete online system for viewing, selling and printing professional images. Their services and products increase revenue, decrease cost and save time - allowing the creative professional to focus on their passion instead of their process.

Although wedding photography is their focus, Pictage is very effective for photographers who shoot portraiture and special event photography, as well. Their web-based system is compatible with both Macs and PCs, and is perfect for mobile professionals and established studio photographers.


PICtage offers creative products and services to help you manage and grow your business.

PICtage provides valuable marketing tools to help you reach more brides and book more weddings.

PICtage posts your digital and film images online to expand your audience.

PICtage actively markets to event guests on your behalf to increase your sales.

PICtage handles the fulfillment of all the additional orders they generate.

PICtage sends monthly royalty checks to the photographer for all web orders they fulfill.

Dave

Lets talk shop, you got my juices going when I clicked on your Quick Portrait Page (I just might have to copy you, I will concur the east coast and you the west)

I am interested to know if you remember your set up, lens, flash and exposure, I love the lighting on your subject matter, summer is coming soon and I am going to have some family stuff soon so I would like to introduce the ‘California Method’.

Also for anybody, I am looking for a good program to use with or in conjunction with Photoshop to give my images a variety of boarders (frames)

Thanks
Saskia

Sweet! I like that - the "California Method"

I think I shot all of those pics with the 70-200 and popped in a little fill flash - but nothing too fancy. The "California Method" will almost always consisit of the easiest way possible so we can go carve some gnarly barrels (I've actually never surfed in my life but I always make fun of my friends who do because of their funny lingo)

For bordering this is the best stuff and we're working with Nitorix to make it better!

Nitorix Bordering!

The Nitorix boardering is amazing. It will place a boarder around any size and dimension photo, and will do so in large batches, so you don't have to open each one individually, you can do it to a whole file full of them. Really very cool and very fast.

Hey!!! I surf and I never use that lingo!



I'll definitely be buying Nitorix once I have camera and photoshop in hand.

Hey question... What are the top 5 things that you would tell someone wanting to get into wedding photography?? I have a kid who is in my high school group that into photo and wants to shoot weddings... having only done 2 I don't know much.

--- Gregg

QUOTE (oneblankcanvas @ Feb 16 2005, 11:17 PM)

What are the top 5 things that you would tell someone wanting to get into wedding photography??

The obvious:

1. Two decent camera bodies
2. Lenses that are better than your camera bodies
3. Working on your photography as an art
4. Knowing your equipment like it's second nature
5. (the only key element) Clients who like your work and want to book you

and here are a few "real" answers off the top of my head . . .

Be Prepared:
1. With your knowledge/expertise, a plan, and backup equipment.
2. To make a commitment to your art, your business, and your clients.
3. To reap the (mostly non-monetary) rewards of doing what you love and loving what you do.

Take:
4. A LOT of photos in a lot of different situations/locations/environments/times of day.
5. One thing at a time and build up your experience, business, and equipment over the course of your career. Continue to learn and you will continue to grow!

That's all I can think of. Anyone else?

Brian was right on the $$$ so I don't have much else to say...but I'll pass along the same words of advice that my dad gave to me.

"If you go into business with the desire to help other people you'll always have plenty of work."

First learn! Then focus on the intangibles - network like crazy! Always give! ...and never stop pursuing new ideas and growing!

In simple high school language - Have fun and make people happy!

Thanks guys... I'll pass this info along to him... I'm not really interested in weddings... Although soon I may be assisting on them if I get this job at at photo studio.

Brian, when are you gonna be posting some of your fashion stuff??? I'd love to see it. I'm currently working on some ideas for a fashion shoot... don't know who I will have do the modeling yet, but just workin on ideas!

--- Gregg

Thanks for the info. I am going to try the Nitrorix software. Doing a wedding on the 27th and will be taking my infrared camera, if I get some really net shots I want to finish it with a good border, used to do all of my darkroom work with a filed out negative carrier, oh but wait David, have you ever been in a darkroom, do you know what one is (ok now I made myself sound really old-LOL).

Brian, you make a very good point about Lenses and the importance of them being good. On another post someone asked if they should invest in buying a 2.8 lens, the Nikkor lenses they have now are 3.5 or 4.5 (can not remember). I mentioned the importance, but other photographers posted that it was not true. I believe it is. My favorite lenses is my 2.8 28-80.

David your father is very right, my closest friend here is a photographer, is a tremendous help, shares his equipment, always has an eye open for you on a good deal, shares is knowledge, and he has more work then he know what to do with.

The California Method, very much like the Florida Method were I spend most of my child hood (don’t ask how I ended up in NJ). I do have to give some credit to the sun, it is just, well brighter, the color more saturated.

You won't regret the Nitorix software. It's awesome.

As far as the preparing to do weddings go, one thing DJ has helped me so much with is being motivated. I'll leave so many conversations with DJ soooo motivated to get back and try new ideas, raise my prices, and find new ways to grow my business. Surrounding yourself with people/materials that will help you stay motivated is a huge help!

This thread rocks!

Thanks Chris... I just wish I could find someone out here to chat with and network....

--- Gregg

P.S. -- You're so lucky have DJ, Dana, and all the other Santa Barbara peeps....