is that "artistic nudity" or nudity for the sake of being nude?



AWESOME video!!! We've watched several of his videos in the High School group I work with

It's whatever will get the most people dirty...

I hear your point, but there has to be a line.. Would you shoot the wedding of a man to his goat or horse??? what about an arranged marriage to a 12 year old girl??

It seems like you want to push the line only to where you and society are comfortable, and then you claim to be open minded.. IF there is no line then go all the way,

why can't people run a business and pick and choose???

Why do they have to be labeled hypocritical or the like???

I say run YOUR business and decide to shoot whoever YOU want to shoot. If someone is convicted let them plea for help, if someone sees wrongdoing amongst a friend or fellow believer then let them talk to them personally.

In addition, why set this up as a question when you obviously wanted to share your opinion and educate/convict people.. Next time say what you really believe and don't sweeten it up.. just say "Ok here is my topic, I believe this, you should think about this" I know it will probably have less drama and not cause quite a stirr, but I think you would have more of a transparent motive. I'm not a fan of rhetorical questions, I think it is a way for someone to start controversy w/o being man enough to stand for something and lay it out


ok there i am being mr party pooper again,

enjoy

Hmmm dan nude or dan "artistic" nude? Artistic!

And many here claim to be! That was my point.

If I had video, you'd all see me shaking my slipper at the monitor.


I love you all, really I do.

Blessings.

Think reprise of the Dewey Oxberger "Rubber Band Man" scene from Stripes...

I have made the long/sad walk to the car from the Rose bowl 3 OF THE LAST 4 YEARS!!!! Lloyd Carr needs to find a new job, I ve wasted about 800 so far on that dang game I need to find a couple that wants to shoot engagements at the game next year so I can write it off!!!@!@!

I really want this to be taken in the right tone and not twisted or misrepresented ok? Please? I would like to point out with honest and open intent that at least two people have now said in one way or another that the amount of Christian "expression" on the forum makes them uncomfortable (or outright offended) and they've been basically told to get over it. I would very seriously like you guys to consider that when you think about why others might feel that this is a "Christian forum" and that non-Christians, people with non-Christian points of view, and even some Christians feel less welcome.

Karen

Just wanted to chime in here for Karen S.
I haven't followed all of the thread about this... but I wanted to let everyone know I know from experience she's not a bitter woman. She's quite eloquent and doesn't hold back her opinions on what she believes is right- I think that deserves respect. I feel like she's getting attacked for holding different opinions and this is def'n not the place for that.

Ok, now off to the family reunion.
Have a Happy New Year everyone!

And yet your message gets directed at many non-christians Johnny. You "testified" at a jewish gathering that you were contracted to WORK at, not contracted to PREACH at. Where do YOU draw the line?

With regards to being told by God to pass along his good word, and having heard him whisper in your ear, I would offer this. There are some fine institutions and some might fine drugs out there that may be able to help with those symptoms.

Here's the deal...

What would make the most sense to me is if the Christians who are here would stop asking the non-Christians to conform to *their* standards...

and the non-Christians could do the same.

Then it would be a happy place again!

This is a forum for NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE people! Didn't you guys get the memo?!?!

Thank you for stating this Karen. I can assure you, based upon a similar thread that went on here last year, that I am definitely NOT the only one who contributes here, who has felt this way. I am also sure that several of them are laughing their collective butts off about all the things going on in this thread now, as well.




And that has been my experience with Karen as well. She speaks her mind, and is usually quite eloquent about getting her point across.

On that note you must respect Johnny as well. Great! We all agree! Now let's get out of here and go shoot something!

Eric- start advertising at UCLA and Oregon next year. USC is going to the national championship next year (which I think is not at the Rose Bowl) so you will need to figure out who will be #2 in the PAC 10.
But surely more of you are offended that I believe the Big 10 is totally over rated? Ohio St. is going down!

My final reply - since I am being personally insulted here.

God's message (not mine) is for all - and it covers all and is directed towards all.
IF you feel convicted, take it to the Lord. Do not shoot the messenger.

In regards to your claim that I am insane. Nice, that's real mature Chris.
I have taken tests, many tests. And I barley pop up on the insane spectrum.
But for fun why don't you take this one:
http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv

And if anyone has read Dante's Inferno - you'll enjoy this one as well:
http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv


Chris, your insult is proof of your fruit.
Repent!

Agree with you there Amber.

Thanks guys. I was beginning to feel like a very very very small voice in the wilderness.

Karen

Johnny, I am sorry that you feel that way, as I was merely joking around with you, hence the emoticons present in THAT portion of my post.

But, whatever, take your ball and go home. i'm done with this thread for awhile, I have work to do.

And for the record....

I do fit into the Christian part of this board... and feel very strongly about many many many things...

Have no problems with saying that God plays a huge part in what is happening in my life... and in blessing our business!

But it isn't my place to tell you (collective you) that you have to live your life to my standards!

Please allow me the same pleasure!

Hey there!

Here's a link that I think everyone would have a blast with...would love to see your awesome images

http://www.opensourcephoto.net/forum/index...ic=3803&hl=

You know, I have three daughters, ages 3, 9 and 11.
And there are times when they come to me crying because some called them a name or "...said something that hurt my feelings."
What do I do as a father? Do I say, "Hey, lets go talk to that person and tell them to change they way they act on not say things like that!" No, cause it wouldn't make a difference. I cant force someone to change they way they are.
So, what do I do? I tell my daughters, that they know who they are, and that it shouldnt matter what other people think, because other people dont define WHO they are. I reassure them that God loves them, I love them and tell them how special they are and it doesnt matter what other people say because they dont know them.

Amber, I comletely respect you, Nathan and a host of others on here who have always taken this stance, and for that I thank you.

I can only hope that I have offered you the same courtesy and respect in return.
Have a great night folks.

If your daughters came to you and said that someone told them that their actions made her feel uncomfortable and unwelcome ... would you tell your girls that it wasn't their responsibility to help people feel welcome or comfortable and that they should just ignore it?

Karen

Here's what I think happened here: Too many people on both sides are making rash and extreme statements. I think someone blamed AIDS in Africa on Catholics, which was lame. Others are throwing around terms like "perverted" and "abomination" when talking about gay weddings.

I believe these kinds of statements should be left off a photography forum. I don't think censorship is needed, just a little more tact on the part of all posters.

1) I have only shot Christian weddings at this point, and actually, all Catholic weddings at this point. But I don't have a problem shooting other faith's weddings. How do I reconcile that? I don't have to. I am Catholic and I believe that Grace comes to us through prayer, reading the Bible, going to Mass (Church), and especially the Sacraments, however God is not Catholic. He is free to do with His Grace as he sees fit, he can dispense it anyway He wants. Unless the couple getting married has made a conscious rejection of Christ and/or God (even the god they believe in, whatever his name may be) and have denied all ways of receiving God's grace and love, then God can still dispense His Grace to them. And maybe, by my example they will come to believe that there is something real. Example: at every wedding, I go before the tabernacle with my camera and I offer it and myself to Christ that I may be faithful both to my faith in my business and through out the wedding, and I entrust to him everything that I am and know so I can do the best I can so that my photography will be a blessing to the couple and their families. I think my prayers works regardless of what faith the couple and/or family practice.

2) Yes, but so far only 1, my wife's. I don't have an issue shooting exposed tummies since that is not a private part, and it's being both shown and photographed to celebrate the gift of life and blessings that come with the birth of a child.

3) I haven't been asked, but if asked I would do it. My Christian faith has as it's root the Jewish faith, and I have been nothing but enriched in my Catholic faith by knowing what little I know of the Jewish faith, life, and traditions. I would say that my Catholic faith is all the stronger because of the little I have learned of the Jewish faith. The Jews believe that the Messiah has not yet come, but they believe that when He comes, they will be a fulfilled Jew...in my case, since I am a Catholic Christian, but since the roots of my faith is the Jewish faith, I believe, that I am a fulfilled Jew. So I have no conflict, in what little I know, I love the Jewish faith.

4) There can be no relationship with Christ unless there is a personal relationship amongst Christians, therefore the need for a church. Hence, the only way I will shoot an event on Sun. is if it doesn't interfere with me and my family practicing and living our faith. In my case I have choices, thankfully, I can go to Mass on Sat. and fulfill my Sun. obligation, or go to one of the early Sun. Masses. However, if presented with the choice of either shooting an event or going to Mass, no matter the $$, Mass will always win.

Thank you Matt for asking the questions. You know I respect and look up to you and Sarah a great deal. I hope that I have helped you at least a little in finding what you were looking for.

What's funny is how dramatic a reversal that is from the last time you were here Karen. Swan was just about the only person to agree with you when you & I got into it. In your first post "back" you stated that you didn't think there was any point in posting here - yet you continue to do so. Why is that? If you don't agree with the way the forum works, you admittedly have your own, you don't like a good majority of the people here, you've insulted this forum before (personally at this point I don't know why you are still ALLOWED here let alone why you come of your own volition - but since DJ didn't ban you the first time you insulted all of us, I'm not going to do it on my own now that I can). What IS your point Karen? Why do you bother with us at all? What makes you think you're going to come here & start this crap again and nobody is going to stand up to it again?

I'm not going to bother refuting half of your points because in argument's form, we'd be on the same side - except you get everything so tangled you make EVERYONE BUT YOU look like the bad guy. Including Kevin. Who has supported you in the past.

So figure out why you're here. If it's to continue getting into shit with all the members, I for one will have a short fuse for it. Just FYI.

M

As long as they were not doing anything wrong, yes, I would tell them to ignore it. When is it my responsibilty or yours to make people feel comfortable? I have news for you, you cant please everyone. There will always be someone that feels uncomfortable or unwelcome. always!
It would be like if a wheel chaired individual wanted to go out for the Denver Broncos? Well, the tryouts are pretty difficult and I doubt the disabled individual would do very well. So what should they do? Change the game because if we dont, we would hurt their feelings?
Its like letting girls in the boy scouts or letting a guy be on the womens vollyball team.
Its getting rediculous.

Do I or you not have the right to live the way we please (in concordance to the law)?

+1!!!

The marriage to the 12 year old girl is illegal in all states. So is the marriage to the goat. If someone wants me to shoot a man & his goat having a fake wedding & wants to pay me for it? I'll be there with both cameras going. I want the footage! I know what you're saying - I'm not sure you heard what I was saying at all.



Of course everyone is going to create a line for themselves. Where did I say they can't? I said I didn't understand their line & sought to. Why is my pursuit of this knowledge worth telling me I "claim" to be open minded with the obvious intonation that I'm not?



Why can't you read the words "I think" and "I believe"? Since we're asking questions, I mean. I said "it seems hypocritical to me" - seems and me. I didn't say "you're a fuckin hypocrit if you shoot a Muslim wedding" right? If I did find that one for me. I'll be glad to remove it.



I do. I will. I expect you all to do the same. You're mistaking me Kawter - sorry but you are. Read the whole thread someday. I'm not the guy you & CG think. Reread & believe what I'm saying - I crave knowledge, understanding & a good rousing debate. I'm not telling you what to do - I'm pointing out what I see and seeing how people feel about it.



You quite clearly a) didn't read the whole topic or b) don't "get" what I'm saying - that's ok, I understand that. But think about what I've written and pretend for one lousy second in your head that I mean it. I'm sick of being accused of this & that when I asked a few questions that came into my head. I'm in search of knowledge but if you're in search of a fight about it, I'm down. Take your narrow-minded interpretation of my posts away. I've explained why I asked the questions - if you don't believe me, fine, but you don't know me. So what is your basis?

Someone brought up Hitler - isn't this thread over? Godwins Rule?

I was trying to remember that... was just about to do a google search.

Like Matt, I like reading what others think and why. And Matt, I appreciate you for asking the questions and taking the associated heat.

~Bill

Edit: After reading what I wrote and realizing that even though I've read this whole thread I haven't posted at all, i guess I should clarify, I like reading what other OSP members think and feel about how they allow their beliefs to interact with their business. I have tremendous respect for a lot of the folks here, both because of their personal successes and their willingness to share. My personal beliefs are just that, and if you really want to know, ask me, in person, preferably over a glass of red wine. I don't intermix them with my business, but that's just me.... ;-)

I was refering to Simon Hitler, the famous dutch poet who wrote the obscure poem, "Religious nuts, we are better off without. Kill em all"

I thought it was general knowledge. oops. sorry

I will commit to re-reading this 10 pages and openly try to see exactly where you are coming from, but at the same time I think you should examine something as well..

If this is a trend and you keep getting accused of something, maybe you have a little to do with it (momma always told me that if something happens often, there might be more reasons than the ones i want to believe)

You might want to think about the fact that you are typing text and it doesn't always get interpreted how you write it. If we were to debate in a room with everyone present and know the tone and intentions, it is a lot easier than what happens in this environment.


.... of to re-read the mountian of posts

I stepped into this conversation once against my better judgment-- once more and then I'm out.

Jen-- I did not in any way take any offense to your comments. You're absolutely right-- a conversation like this is much better suited to face-to-face. I was simply pointing out a point or two that I felt needing clarifying from my own point of view.

Johnny-- It's the spirit doing the talking and not you? That has got to be the single most enormously arrogant cop-out of all time. It shows a total lack of respect for anyone with even a slightly opposing view, not to mention a complete abrogation of any responsibility for yourself. As for your comment that you didn't insult me, think again. Merely and observation that extreme thoughts at either end of the spectrum are dangerous. I find your attitude towards non-Christians to be thoroughly insulting and offensive. Simply calling it like I see it.

Chris-- BRAVo +1+1+1....well-said.

--J.

I agree, I have appreciated this thread, and seeing what others believe and where they are coming from. as I've said many times, it's certainly made me think about my views and where I stand. Thanks Matt for posting this.


And I hope my prior post wasn't taken as trying to force my faith on anyone, just sharing my views as they were directly questioned, more of an explanation of why I came to the conclusions I have than trying to change anyone's mind.

Though I believe strongly in my faith, I know everyone doesn't believe the same. I wish they would, but they don't, and it's not my job to change their mind. I respect all of you both as photographers and as people, whether you agree with my faith or not. I don't look down on people who believe differently and if I in some way in my posting appeared that way, I apologize.

Cannot assist. We're 606 feet long. Light draft. We cannot assist...we're in an abutment. Stop all the traffic on the bridge. Send some vessels out here to render assistance. People are in the water.

Thanks Jeff

Dude, where do you find this stuff. lol

I would reserve the word "abomination" for something really bad like selective desaturation. Let's keep it on task.

Marc

I think i've heard used to describe pictage and wpja too.

And BTW, alot of people still like selective color/desaturation. Thats pretty closed minded if you dont offer that!

I refuse to have a battle of wits with an opponent who has no ammunition...

Was there humor in that, that I missed or was it just mean?

Its tuesday

Bloody 'ell what a long (but extremely interesting) thread!

I have to read the whole thread at some point. I find Matt's questions very interesting & I am enjoying all the replies.

Someone mentioned this forum feels quite Christian. As a total newbie here I can say I did react to all the posts mentioning God, Jesus and some posts felt like preaching. It sure is the first ever forum I've been on where I've heard people so openly express their religion. A part of me finds it quite refreshing, the other part might occasionally feel there's too much preaching.

As you can tell I'm not Christian. I'm not anything really apart from spiritual. In Sweden many are Christian, but Protestant, and in all honesty very few are active Christians.

I'm not religious. I don't want anyone to try & convert me. But, I DO respect other's faith, no matter what it is. I don't like it when some go to extremes & use religion to justify violence etc, but that's 'cos I don't believe those people truelly have taken in the religion & it's true meaning. They have a warped version of it.

I don't care which religion you belong to. I have to admit I admire & respect those who do try to live every day by honoring their belief. It's not easy, especially not in this time & age. No matter the religion.

Even if I don't want to be preached for, I admire those who do it in a way, as it shows they actually stand by their faith. That's better than all the Swedes who get baptised, confirmation & never put a foot in a church apart from wheh they think "Oh, a church wedding would be nice". I personally wouldn't go through confirmation or a church wedding if I don't feel I'm a Christian (in whatever sense you may define it). Those ceremonies aren't for getting gifts or a nice location. I have more respect for religion than to do them if I don't believe in it.

That said, I'm for all religions & people should respect each other. I will have my views, you yours & discussions should be had, but with mutual respect.

As for Matt's questions. I'd shoot any wedding/union ceremony with the exception of arranged marriages between some old man & young child, or arranged marriages where it's clear it's not a consentual union.
I'll shoot nudes without any moral dilemmas. Male, female or both. I find the human form fascinating.

I think that everyone should do what feels good for them. As long as you explain in a professional manner why you decline a shoot, then it should be up to you. If the photographer is uncomfortable it won't be a good outcome for the client, better be honest in a tactful way.

Just my $0.02 Sorry for the long post!!

Geez Dan, I make my first post on the subject and now you want to delete it all! I'm offended!!! Oh.... wait... no.... I'm not... ;-)

You know, I thought about that, but I think OSP will be fine. Everything goes through cycles. Its happened before and it will happen again. This thread like some others will fade away, everyone will talk about WPPI and setting up stuff like mentor sessions, etc... then everything will be fine and fun for another 8 months or so, then something else will come, be a big hoopla and it will settle down again.
No big deal. Everyone here loves each other (well at least I do).

I wouldnt worry about 1 or 2 post to destroy OSP. Though it does seem like DJ doesnt post as much as he used to.

Wowza.

And this is the "niiiiiice" forum?

Wow.

Wow wow wow wow.

PS - Why am I back? A few people who are members here asked me to come back and give OSP "another try" and reassured me that I would not be subject to personal attack because really everyone here *is* nice, despite having sometimes heated differing points of view. And every once in a while I like being able to participate on a board as just another member and not as an owner.

Karen

Hmmmmm. lets see.

FIRST-TIME WEDDING PRICES ... PLEASE HELP

photographer's newsletter 12
anyone interested?

Customer Feedback
Does anyone do it?

Last wedding of '06
on Grand Island

dog picture

ONE LIGHT IN RALEIGH, NC
interested?

the NEW OSP West

Ever shoot e-pics or wedding in a theater??
lighting? ideas? advice?

Your Favorite Photograph of 2006

and so on.....

So, does one post a forum make?

When one post full of hate and vitriol is directed at me personally, then yah, it does. I'm sure you'd feel the same way if you came to my board and I let one of my members go off on you in a similar manner. FWIW, if any member of my board behaved in such a way and said such things about another member, no matter what my personal feelings were, that person would get put on a 10-day Read Only in a heartbeat. And I don't brand my forum as the "niiiiice" forum. FWIW.

Karen

"Aren't you basing your beliefs on your personal lifestyle? How do you "KNOW" that your way is the only way?

I *know* that if OSP were like this when I checked it out back in August of 2005, I don't think that I would have joined up at all.
Yep. I don't post here. This is one of the reasons. It would be better for all concerned if OSP would just admit that it's a Christian based board and let people make the decision with that knowledge up front, rather than insisting it isn't and having people be slapped in the face with "God will provide" and "In His name" posts."


And that comment isnt an attack on anyone?

No, seriously I'm very puzzled by this comment. Why is saying that OSP is a Christian based forum, an attack?

I'm very very very puzzled by the angry and hateful and ugly turn this has taken against me personally.

Karen