Must be pretty cold in Wisconsin. Frostbite has a numbing effect on the mind.

No, I couldn't make it for their wedding -- it was pretty short notice.

Leann

No, orange is whorish.

Okay, so I go away to shoot a wedding today and this thread just explodes... Wow.


This thread, and the state of our world, proves that we are so close to the end.
Even so, Come Lord Jesus.


By the way, I have been working on an online bible study concept for some time now, but I keep putting it off - but feel inspired to push ahead with it (got my third 'nudge' tonight at the wedding from my friend).

I prayed hard about it and am inspired to start with the topics of Obedience and Respect.
Should be a great set of lessons there, and it will probably go on for a while since those topics are so deep.

If interested, feel free to let me know if you want the link to it when I get it started.
Send me an email or pm me.

Blessings!

+++10

And here I'd been trying so hard to stay out of this one.

Let me start by saying that I'm impressed with the overall respect and open-mindedness with which people have been addressing the questions-- MUCH more so than by a few people participating in the debate raging in another thread concerning recent avatars (all of which I really like, btw). It's this open-mindedness, acceptance, and willingness to learn from one another which I'm sure drove DJ to establish this forum in the first place, and it is the same open-mindedness which keeps it going. Am I always 100% comfortable with everything discussed? Of course not. Does that mean I don't respect points of view to which I do not ascribe? Again, of course not.

EXCEPT-- when a point of view, philosophy, outlook, etc., is presented as an absolute, with absolutely zero room for interpretation or the possibility that something else might be "right" also. That is where I think some responses fall short.

So, why did this portion of Jen's reply push me to throw my own two cents into the pile? Because I think her otherwise excellent and well-reasoned responses fell short in two aspects-- both of which presented themselves (at least to me) in the same sentence. For one, I don't think it wise to say that a religious group is "missing" anything simply by virtue of believing something different. I'm an observant, religious, practicing Jew. Am I "missing a crucial element" because I don't accept Jesus as my Messiah? No. Because the tenets of my religion are clear-- and complete-- that the messiah has not yet come. This does not mean there are any gaping holes in my faith. It simply means that I/we believe in something different. I believe that Jesus was an incredibly intelligent, charismatic, learned, respectable man of God and that the world benefitted immensely from him being in it. But for me and for the foundation of my faith, that's where it ends.

Also, the comment that the Jewish faith stems from Christianity caused me to pause for a moment. I think that historical fact bears out that Judaism predated Christianity. Don't get me wrong-- I don't think it was some sort of race and that there's some sort of "winner" in the "My Religion is Older than Your's" olympics. At the begining of his story, Jesus was Jewish. His students called him "rabbi" (a Hebrew word long before it was ever an English word). He was later baptized and began to preach a new gospel. Christianity was born. (Also noteworthy-- the term is Judeo-Christian and not the other way around).

Karl Marx once wrote that "religion is the opiate of the masses." And while I think that the world could have been a better place had the overwhelming majority of his works been ignored, it's hard to not see at least a little bit of wisdom in this quote. Religion is always going to mean something different to everyone because everyone's life is different. Religion and faith give our lives purpose, comfort, direction, etc. It is all of these things which help bring us peace and serenity. Christianity believes (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) that you don't get into Heaven if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your savior. Does that mean there is no chance for me? For my wife or parents? For my perfect angel of a son? OF COURSE NOT!!! If you are a person of faith, can you even begin to comprehend living your life on the preconceived notion that everything you're doing is pointless and that you have no chance whatsoever at any sort of salvation?

We believe different things. It doesn't mean by definition that any of us are missing anything.

Now, back to Pictage and WPJA. Chartreuse-- now THAT'S whorish.

--J.

Happy New Year!!!!

A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. Think about that one.
If God, the supreme being and creator of everything, said to the Muslims "you're okay with me, go ahead, keep on forcing others to convert to Islam"
ANd then told the Jews "Yeah, I sent you Jesus, but good thing you didn't listen - all you need is to feel good about who you are and how you live. I'll still let you in. Forget what I said about repentance and atoning for sin." And then said to the Christians "Now go, tell everyone about me, lead them to repentance etc."

Wouldn't his kingdom fail since he cannot seem to manage his vast number of "believers"?

God has only one way, one truth and one life - Jesus, He is the fulfillment of the old Law.
If you don't like it, tough - that's the way God set it up. Would you rather live under the law or under his Grace?

He is the Father, He makes the rules. We are to follow them if we want to live in eternal peace, giving him praise and honor.

He came to save his own, but his own denied him.
The Scribes a Pharisees conspired from the beginning how they could put him to death.
They feared that he threatened their rule over the people (No different than the Christian church leaders do today - most are modern day pharisees - that's why so many tell people what they want to hear, not what they NEED to hear).

There is no one, none, in all of history that has been capapble of fulfilling all of the messianic prophecies outlined in what we Christians call the old testament, as Jesus did.

He Was, IS and always will be the Messiah. And that is the truth.
Truth is absolute and God's infallable word is not open to any mans interpretation.


For what it's worth, back when I believed in nothing.
I had many things happen to me that are unexplainable and I really don't feel like sharing those details here. But I was brought up in a divided house. My father, devout Catholic (I hated church) and my mother - well, she picked what she liked from each religion and made up her own (a lot like what I see in these threads).

I did not like either ones approach, and I was and still am, fascinated by the Orthodox Jewish faith. The devotion to holiness (I was being called at a very young age to holiness), the devotion to tradition, family values etc. I wanted to become an Orthodox Jew by faith/practice. But then Jesus spoke to me, I won't go into detail here since it is too special for me, I weep everytime I mention this... He simply told me that He is the King of the Jews. (For the devout, bible believers - read Matt. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21 - this is what I experienced in vivid detail. Three years later when I started going to bible study did I realize that what I saw, experienced and felt had already been spoken of by Jesus 2000 yrs before I read those scriptures.)

Here's my point. If you do not KNOW, you cannot really comment.
All you are doing is basing your beliefs on your own personal lifestyle, not on what is actually right or wrong.

My thoughts above may be fragmented, but I am weeping as I write this.
And to understand why I cry for those on here and in the world who I know are lost, who I know are missing something let me put it into context with something most of us can understand - the wedding photography business.


There is an easy way to be a successful wedding photographer and their is a hard way.
Many of us here subscribe to the same idea, workflow or 'system' in order to be successful. And regardless of one's photographic talent, it works! And we go to and fro telling all who will listen of what we have discovered, showing them how they too can do what they love and NOT be poor or starving. And some do follow along, and do the same, but others do not, and they suffer for it, and we wonder why they can't see the truth in this workflow/system. Those of us who spend time (some more than others) on this forum, giving a wealth of knowledge without wanting anything in return but to see their 'friends' make it in this world of starving artists. It is our personal business experiences and big hearts that move us to compassion for those who are lost, or untrained in the business world - so we reach out and give them the gift of knowledge of the truth. And we hope they take our words and run with them so they too can experience the joy and freedom we have been given by the knowledge that was handed us.

Johnny, buddy, I love ya and I know you're really being sincere here. But hardline stances like this are what turns people off to Christianity and religion as a whole. Vatican II went a long way to redefine how Catholics view other religions. Pope John Paul II specifically called on Catholics to respect other religions and called for better relations between Christians and Jews. It's not very respectful to go around and tell people that what they believe is wrong.

And it certainly is not appropriate, in my opinion, to continually discuss scripture and theological issues on a photography board. This is a place to learn more about photography. It's also a place where people of all faiths gather to talk and learn about business practices.

I think we should respect their right to learn here without being constantly battered about the head and neck with a Bible, the Quran or a Tora. Amen.

Wow...for a being credited with creating the world and everything/everyone in it, you certainly do not give him much credit for the ability to multi-task and keep it all straight.

I'd always wondered what it sounded like when a heavily reenforced door slammed shut on a closed mind.

Now I know.

Extremism comes in all forms...none of them good.

--J.

Shane,

Love ya too buddy, and I appreciate your point of view on this.
(By the way, as a devout Catholic, Vatican 2 is a joke - we allowed non-believers to tell us what and how to believe, but I usually stand totally alone on that one. My fellow Catholics hate me for my views as do my protestant friends... what to do?)

But, look at the original thread topic from Matt. It obviously opens up the diologue and discussion about scripture and our convictions.

And it is very respectful when you correct someone, cause your are attempting to help them. Would you not stop someone for doing something you know is wrong or in error in , just to please them and their feelings?

And also, wasn't it bold statments that got John the Baptist beheaded?
Wasn't it bold statements that led Christ to the Cross?
That got Stephan stoned by the hierarchy?
John sent to Patmos?
Peter Crucified upside down?

Please read my third quote in my signature.
I am not called to tell people what they want to hear, I am called to speak and repeat what God whispers in my ear, and what the holy spirit places on my heart.

I am not sorry for what is said since I do not speak on my own.
My human nature wants to shut up, but my spirit can't.

I do not intend harm on anyone, nor do I condone any violence that has ever been brought about by religious warring.

Jesus commanded and I follow it, "Be ye cunning as serpants (wise) but innocent as doves."

This thread is too much.

Wow.

We are all over the place in here.

Of course He is the King of Multitasking, but He cannot contradict himself.
That's what I was pointing out.

By the way, we are called to open our hearts in scripture:
2nd Maccabees 1:
[2] God be gracious unto you, and remember his covenant that he made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, his faithful servants;
[3] And give you all an heart to serve him, and to do his will, with a good courage and a willing mind;
[4] And open your hearts in his law and commandments, and send you peace,
[5] And hear your prayers, and be at one with you, and never forsake you in time of trouble.
[6] And now we be here praying for you.

And why the need to insult, I did not insult you.

Jeff, thank you for replying, first let me say, you're right, the Jewish faith did come first, and I worded my statement incorrectly. I do much better speaking to someone face to face than I do typing out my thoughts into a concise tight little package (with no errors). What I meant is that they both come from the same faith. The Jewish faith of course coming first, and the Christian faith branching off from that. I just worded my statement wrong.

I'm sorry if my comment about my belief that the Jewish faith is missing the Messiah- Jesus, offended you. I didn't mean to offend by it, but I also do believe that. Just as you believe in your faith, I believe in mine. You believe Jesus was a good man, I believe he is the Messiah that the Old Testament speaks of and the Jews were waiting for. To me I've had to think and re-think my belief in Jesus and it comes down to 3 options for me. With the claims Jesus made he is either a Lunatic, Liar or Lord. he claimed that not only was/is he sent from God, but that he WAS God and the Messiah. Those are some strong claims. I don't think he was crazy, his life doesn't support that. He was very consistent in both what he taught and how he lived. So then I'm left with he's a Liar. Again I don't believe he was. Things he spoke of came true, he did things no other man could do. thousands upon thousands witnessed his miracles and validated them. Then the only other option for me is that he is Lord.

I can't just look at him as a good man, who did good things, his claims don't allow me to make that choice. His words shook the Jewish culture at that time, dividing them, causing near riots, he claimed he WAS GOD, no good man could make those claims and tell people they needed to follow him to get into heaven....... unless his claims were true.


I'm sorry if my belief that Jesus is the only way to heaven is offensive, I don't mean for it to be. I truly don't. Just like other faiths belief of salvation isn't offensive to me. I don't personally think they are right, but I don't feel offended by their beliefs and their narrow or wide views of who can and will be saved. I don't understand why Christian's views of salvation are so offensive when the Jewish faith teaches (correct me if I'm wrong) that only the Jewish race are the saved people, or that i won't go to Mecca if I'm not a Muslim. No one seems to get offended by other faiths strong stands on what they believe in salvation, but it seems that Christians take heat at their "narrow view of salvation". I just personally am confused by that. If this last bit came off as argumentative, I'm sorry, it's truly not intended to be (one reason message boards and email are so difficult, you don't hear tone of voice).

Thank you everyone for this conversation, as I said above, so many of the things said here have made me think and re-analyze what I believe, and what my views are on so many of these different points brought up.

Shouldn't you say "...but Christians have a obligation to stand up for what(THEY FEEL/believe IS)right,..."

It is good to have your beliefs. I was hoping that people understand that there are different mindsets out there ....and they are not all "wrong"

I am Catholic and my Fiancee is Buddhist (thai) and my friends are Gay, and Jewish.

Okay, I don't really want to jump in -- and this is not in reference to anyone in particular, but I feel the need to reply.



First, the questions.
1. Anything, anytime is fine with me
2. I don't currently shoot maternity, but I would, with tasteful amounts of nudity (as in tummy, etc)
3. No problem with Bat/Bar Mitsvahs
4. I don't often work on Sundays, but I would - taking another day as a Sabbath.

Second, a few thoughts.
Let me start by saying this, I am a Christian - a pretty strong one. I have been raised by divorced parents, one of whom is a lesbian. Also, my mom and her partner have had a Commitment ceremony (of which I sat through disapprovingly). Now, that is probably one my biggest regrets. I have my views about whether homosexuality is a sin or not, but in my judging my mom, I hurt her deeply. Now, I understand that as Christians, we should not do something just to avoid hurting someone else. What I do know, is that I am called by God to love ALL people, and to leave the judging to Him. So, instead of us judging each other, I feel like we should love them. Plus, since when is one sin worse than another. I lie, I swear, I lust . . . I am just as "bad" as she is.

Now, the business side. I can understand where some of you are conflicted with shooting a gay wedding - and as it is a business, you do have that choice. I would not be against it, only to show that as a Christian, I can still be open-minded and accepting. Now, I am not meaning to put anyone down, or rustle any feathers. I think each and every opinion expressed on here is valid and important to the person that stated it.

Let's just remember that we are to love one another, despite our shortcomings . . . and that is how we can be more and more like Jesus.

I have great and deep respect for each and every one of you. Great topic Matt. It is wonderful to be able to have a discussion like this!

Johnny, The following is simply my opinion, so take it with a few grains of salt. Or maybe a large sack.

How do you know that the god you hear speaking into your ear/inside your head is THE God?

You make some broad sweeping generalizations in many of your posts. And being called to testify and witness to everyone and anyone who will hear you, is not necessarily a good thing, in some cases.

Among other people here, I come to this forum to discuss photography, business, and hang out/chat with some of my friends. I don't come here for a never ending lesson in theology and religion based upon absolutes.

The thread "Amber in her underwear" made several people uncomfortable here, due to quite a few people joining in and changing their avatars. Don't you think that your (among other people as well) continual preaching, witnessing and testifying might be making other people JUST as uncomfortable coming here?

Given that Christianity only encompasses roughly 33% of the world's population, it's a safe bet that similar percentages are at work here, and you are quite possibly alienating 64% of the population of OSP.

I *know* that if OSP were like this when I checked it out back in August of 2005, I don't think that I would have joined up at all.

I am Christian, I do have my beliefs, and I don't need to be told that I'm not a perfect Christian, as I already know it.


Matt, to answer your questions:

1. I have shot non-christian weddings and will continue to do so. Heck, I've shot weddings that did not take place in church, or were not conducted by a priest.

Not that you asked, but I'd gladly shoot a wedding between two people of the same sex who have a deep love for each other.

2. Have not been asked to to Maternity. It is something that I'm working on for this year and next, and would gladly shoot whatever is required for that.

3. Haven't been asked to shoot a bar/bat mitzvah. I would. A client is a client.

4. I'll shoot whenever/wherever someone is wanting to book me to shoot.

Quoting two different people here:

Aren't you basing your beliefs on your personal lifestyle? How do you "KNOW" that your way is the only way?

Yep. I don't post here. This is one of the reasons. It would be better for all concerned if OSP would just admit that it's a Christian based board and let people make the decision with that knowledge up front, rather than insisting it isn't and having people be slapped in the face with "God will provide" and "In His name" posts.

Karen

How is saying "God will Provide" or "in His name" a slap in the face?

if you dont believe in it, how can it slap you?

Please help me understand how all this is so threatening?

If I said, "in the name of Gronko, the all mighty ruler of Gendora!" or "My trusty little crystal will provide" would that offend you or slap you in the face?
I doubt it. You would just think Im a kook and move on. Whats the difference?

Hi Karen, I just wanted to let you know that I really value everything you have posted, when you posted to Neal about his business, ( I was listening!) and here again. You are an incredible and smart woman! I have your blog bookmarked, and really value your input on discussions! Stick around!! We need you!!
Candy:D

And yet, clearly you do...



Karen,

OSP is not a Christian-based anything; it's a forum that is largely un-managed. DJ has graciously paid for the space and bandwidth (and it ain't cheap) for a couple thousand photographers to post messages on any number of topics. You make it sound like you've been sold something that was deceptively offered. A) You haven't paid and B) no one is forcing you to read or write anything.

Occasionally on this board i'll run into posts that, in my opinion, provide poor or even erroneous information about any number of topics. If someone tells me that NIkon is better than Canon, I don't feel I've been "slapped in the face" just because I use Canon. This board is simply a collection of people who post their opinions. Why do you get hurt by that?

It appears you want this board to be censored. That people should be able to post their faith because it doesn't line up with your own. That they are somehow attacking you personally if they say that God will provide. You're clearly bitter about it at the very least. Heck, even if someone said to you, "Karen, you're a sinner who has broken God's covenant and you will go to hell if you are not covered by Christ's grace." I'm not sure why you are so affronted by it. If their post is off topic, ignore it and point out they're thread-jacking. If for some reason you're in a discussion about religion, you can _still_ ignore it. You can scroll right on by. You can even choose never to come back. But to come back and then accuse the management and users of somehow conspiratorially joining forces to attack and offend non-Christians seems silly and petty.

In truth, I'd rather have you stay, contribute to the group with your own thoughts and perspectives. If you believe that Christians are all self-deluded and that whatever you believe is the truth; then as someone who cares for her fellow man, I'd think you'd _want_ to engage in discussions to help Christians understand the truth of your belief. That you'd want to try to show them how they're deceived, how their lives could be better if they understood what you understand. Even if you were the only non-Christian in the bunch, if you're sure of your beliefs, then why should you be shaken or offended by someone who doesn't believe the same thing?

Of course, this is my opinion, and you can ignore it.

Ok, I'm paraphrasing here, but wasn't it C.S. Lewis that said something along the lines of: If you don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, then there are really only two reasonable and logical alternatives to what He represented and who he was (is for us Christians). It is not possible to say that He was just a nice guy who contributed much to the world. He was either:

1) A raving lunatic. I mean the Son of GOD. Come on!!! You can't say that and have it not be true without being certifiably insane.

2) Straight from the bowels of Hell. If you say you are the Son of God, and know that you are not, then you are a liar. And the Bible says that who is the father of lies? Satan. And if you are a liar, then Satan is your father.


So either accept Him or reject Him. And if you don't believe, just say it and stand by it. Because when it comes down to it, if the raving lunatic followers of Jesus are wrong.....by followers I mean those who have a personal relationship. Those who look to God's Word not to man for guidance on how to please the Lord. Anyway, if Christ's followers are wrong, then when we die, what have we lost? We'll be known as crazy, but we will have lived our lives to the best of our ability treating others the way we would like to be treated, walking in humility, standing on something in which we truly believe; which is called faith. I don't think I will have lost a whole lot. BUT, if we're right, those who have not believed have lost a WHOLE lot more.

Either way, whether you choose to believe or not. All of those who are reading, no matter what your faith, know this. In your eyes, Christians may be intolerant. Christians may be hypocrites, crazy, unintelligent, killjoys, or whatever you think. But, please know that a TRUE Christian loves you no matter what you think of them. Please know that God sees each and every one of us as a jewel. There's a children's book by author Max Lucado called "You are Special". It's not just for children. And it so wonderfully illustrates the immeasurable love God has for us. Whether you hate God, curse God, or simply don't believe that He exists. He loves you, and He wants the best for you. You can reject it, but please don't ever doubt it.

Almost forgot: To say that everything is truth is to say that there is no absolute truth. And by saying that there is no absolute truth, one is in fact stating a truth that is absolute. Therefore, it cannot be true.

But those who believe that it is, that everything is truth and nothing is absolute, please don't neglect to validate the legitimacy of Satanists, Spiritists, Spiritualists, Wiccans, Practitioners of Black Magic and the like.

No. Faith came first, the lifestyle followed, and with Faith and Lifestyle as one, blessing abounds, wisdom; knowledge & understanding increase etc. You can't experience or know anything of God without first finding Faith. But not any Faith, THE Faith. And it is clearly written throughout God's holy word in the B.I.B.L.E. (Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth).

Now to answer your second question -

God said in Isa.55
[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

and again he says in Ezek.18
[29] Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

how about 'judging' here he says:
Zech.3
[7] Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

Humankind is always in opposition to the Word of God. Whatever you see as the majority (in deed, thought, word etc) is usually in opposition to God's will. One but only look at history to see that. The Jews have always been under attack (Yes, they are still God's chosen people, but they need to accept the Messiah as who he is - Jesus - in order to be reconciled to him. Neal, as a messianic Jew, I would expect to hear more from you on this.) and then the Christians after them.


Heb.3:10

Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.


I do not make this stuff up. My beliefs come from a lifetime (although only 29 yrs) of wrestling with 'god' as a concept and then having God show up and pin me to the mat.
When you have seen what I have seen, felt what I feel, hear what I hear, and experience everything I have - you too will have just as much, if not more fire in your belly for the truth.

Blessings all!

wowsers.
What happened to free speech?

I can understand that some people are uncomfortable with Christian beliefs... but you don't really have to read this thread or others if you don't like them. That's the cool thing about a boad--the threads are marked and people can go to the ones that interest them. This place is way too big now for someone like me with limited time to devote to it--so I just read the things that interest me as I have time.

One of the things I love about OSP is that for the most part, everyone seems very REAL. We all have different backgrounds and oppinions--we don't all agree--I see this as a strength not a weakness.

I am so grateful for all of the ideas and thoughts that people take the time to put out into the arena for others.

If we start telling people what to talk about--or what not to--we are limiting the potential of the board. If you don't like someone's oppinion, feel free to say so--or to ignore the thread. But lets just do so nicely.

I am a Christian, it's a big part of my life and who I am. It's going to come out in what I talk about and how I do business. I respect that not everyone agrees with me. I believe that the Bible is the word of God. I have many reasons to believe so. The Bible says quite clearly that Jesus is the only way to God. If you're not a christian, and you believe otherwise, I think you're wrong, but that's my right--(we do still have freedom of religion ) and it's your right to think that I am wrong. I'm ok with that. Are you?

It won't affect how I treat you, It's not a superiority complex. I'm just trying to live with integrity--letting what I believe influence my life.

Grace Peace and Love to everyone
~Stina

Now please don't put words in my mouth that I never put there. First of all I well know what it costs to pay for space and bandwidth and software to host a board. I host my own. It's not cheap, but more than the actual physical cost is the amount of time that it requires. I'm well well well aware of all of that.

And no, I haven't been "sold" anything or forced to post and no I don't advocate censorship. But this board *is* heavily Christian based ... David's own posts and statements reflect a Christian based philosophy and the majority of the answers and posts to the majority of the threads are Christian based. I have frequently seen non-Christians respond to threads only to be told that it's important to consider "His will" - regardless of whether or not that person even believes in Him (or him for that matter). The board *is* very Christian-centric.

Again, you're putting words and emotions in my mouth that aren't there. Who said I was hurt?

LOL. Of course if I post disagreeing, I'm bitter. And you don't get why that's offensive?

Oh for pete's sake. Where did I accuse anyone of "conspiring and joining forces to attack". Good GRIEF. What a completely ludicrious and out there statement. I simply cannot have a reasonable and rational discussion with someone who twists and mutates my words in such a way.

See what's funny is that you ASSUME that I am not a Christian and immediately go on the attack.

Think about that.

Karen

I still dont get why? Please explain.

Mark, if you don't get how telling someone they're bitter is offensive, then I probably can't explain it to you. Is calling someone bitter really a compliment in your world?

Resorting to pigeonholing someone by some label is completely dismissive of what they have to say. You've just told me that you're not even going to attempt to understand my perspective or listen to me openly becuase you've branded me as "bitter" and therefore not worth listening to.

Karen

[edited: Um. sorry. I have no idea where those attachments came from. They're not mine and I can't get them to delete.]

I was educated by Jesuits...

Are we ready to tap the keg yet? I'll pump.

God is always glorified when His word is quoted.
For he says through Isaiah
Isa.55:11
So shall my word goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Maybe you aren't blessed by it, but someone out there in cyberspace is. They have been called and are on their knees seeking repentance. God be Glorified.

Do you know what love is? Do you know God's love? A good parent does not allow His children to do what they want, when they want. A good parent corrects and disciplines His children, they may feel hurt for a while, but when they gain wisdom from it, they are thankful. Love hurts.

You ask about Grace, what does that mean to you? Grace is not being bound by the law, but having forgivness through Jesus Christ and His death on the cross for all of our sins. Again, having only repeated what has always been said in the word, Grace is present here on this post.

Understanding? Are you implying that to understand means one must 'accept' anothers viewpoint? I clearly understand where everyone is coming from, I have been there. But I do not accept nor do I have to accept their viewpoint to 'understand'.

Mercy - I have said nothing but merciful things here. But remember, God's ways are not your ways. What you see as unmerciful (A call for sinners to repent and follow Jesus), is true mercy.

I am not shining my light to win praise from man (see my third quote in my signature line), but I am shining the light of Jesus. I was told to.

And as for the tree being known by it's fruit. When the word of God is preached in honesty and truth, and not twisted to the devices of men, the fruit is Holy, pure and suitable to be eaten. But when it is tainted, and poisened by the doctrine of so many profession 'Christians" whose own words convict them of their heresy - well, that fruit is rotten.

Peace and Blessings again!

I wasnt talking about being called bitter, I was talking about people saying something religous.

Love to. I'm ready to drink it up!

Ah. Ok. Well. How about an example.

Say every time you posted something over half the people responded with some variation of "If Allah wills it" and "Allah be praised". And what if you said at some point "Hey, I appreciate the intent, but I'm not Muslim and I don't believe that Allah has anything to do with the success of my business and I'd really like some responses that aren't religious based". And what if people began to then respond to you that it was impossible for them to respond to you without giving you a religious perpsective because Allah was the Way and they couldn't separate their responses from Him.

Would you not begin very quickly to feel like people were forcing their religion and their god (or God) onto you?

I won't even get into the posts like Johnny's.

PS - Jesuits rock.

Karen

Johnny,
I totally disagree with what your saying and I love you passion,but no offense, even Christ knew when to stop talking and move on. He even told his disciples the same. LK 9:5

I honestly doubt many will come to Christ though a forum because Christianity is a relational endeavor. I dont see too many places where Christ told them to witness by writing letters to the towns newspapers. Its really a person to person thing.

Yes, I am getting ready to shake the dust from my feet by the way.
I don't think that anyone who has participated in this thread will be brought to Christ. My point was, His word goes out, and returns unto him without void.


Oh, you never read the book of Revelation then.
Jesus told John to write to the seven churches of asia, to correct them (they were christian) for what areas they needed correcting on.

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit Mark.

I don't think this is a strong argument, and you're not bringing any specific evidence, just sweeping statements. I'd say the majority of the posts here have little or nothing to do with God. There are certainly ethical and moral discussions that happen, and I'd agree that a percentage of the people that post in those discussions seem to be Christians, but I still can't say it's Christian-centric. In fact, as DJ _is_ a Christian, I feel he's been very polite about it. He's never been confrontational or insistent about it. He has only posted HIS feelings and experiences in his life and how he feels his God relates to them. I rarely see him getting involved in the ethical discussions, and when he does, he doesn't thump a Bible on the table.

Oh, I'm sorry. Whenever I've been slapped in the face, it hurt. I guess I don't know what you mean by being slapped in the face. It doesn't hurt?


No, there's disagreeing and then there's being bitter. If you can't see the bitterness in your post, I don't need to spend time pointing it out.

Of course, I exaggerated for the point. But, saying, "It would be better for all concerned if OSP would just admit that it's a Christian based board..." implies that OSP is somehow an entity that, as a group, has decided to falsely present itself as non-Christian to new users. If that's true, then you can only look at David Jan and the users, since that is what OSP is. So, saying the management and users have conspired and joined forces isn't as so ludicrous (spelling) and out there as you have reacted. It is, in essence, what you said.

I'm pretty sure I can have a reasonable and rational discussion with anyone who desires to do so and has at least an average amount of intellect. You clearly qualify in one of the two categories.


I missed where I immediately went on an attack. And, it's true, I assume you're not a Christian by the way you have posted (here and in the past). If that's funny, I'm also missing the humor. If I was a Christian I'd hate for people to assume, by my behavior, that I wasn't; since Christians are supposed to be the ambassadors of Christ's message, humility, and love.



Sorry, I guess I'm not bright enough to pick up on the heavy importance. But, I'd enjoy hearing why you think it's significant.

Hm. Well I just don't think this is going anywhere, because I feel that you've already made up your mind about anything I'm going to say and that you're going to exaggerate it for the most radical and negative spin you can put on it.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

karen

I hope nobody minds if I quote from one of my favorite scriptures...

The new Canon EOS 5D offers advanced photographers a lightweight, robust digital SLR that uses Canon's superlative EF lenses without a conversion factor. Its full-frame 12.8 Megapixel CMOS sensor combines with Canon's DIGIC II Image Processor, a high-precision 9-point AF system with 6 assist points, and "Picture Style" color control to deliver images of superior quality with enough resolution for any application. With its wide-angle capabilities, 2.5 inch LCD and magnesium-alloy body, the 5D is the perfect addition to the Digital EOS line.

• World's smallest and lightest full-frame digital SLR* with a 12.8 Megapixel CMOS Sensor and superb image quality.
• DIGIC II Image Processor for outstanding image quality and performance - 3.0 fps for up to 60 consecutive JPEG or 17 RAW frames in a burst.
• New larger 2.5 inch LCD screen can be viewed even at extreme angles up to 170°.
• New "Picture Style" function for superior command of in-camera color, contrast and sharpness.
• High-precision 9-point AF with 6 additional Supplemental points surrounding the center point for superior focus tracking.
• Strong and light magnesium-alloy body with new shutter durability-tested to 100,000 exposures.
• Compatible with over 50 Canon EF lenses and most EOS System accessories

I'm pretty sure Christian parents could one-up you on how many places anti-Christan materials are evangelized on their children. Who says this isn't the place? This is a PRIVATE FORUM, run by an individual person. He can do whatever he wants with this place. If you don't appreciate how it's ran, start your own and ban all talks of Christianity, or find another one that does so.

I really don't understand this desire for censorship of ideas that don't line up with your own. What country do you think we live in?

Whenever my kids are confronted with ideas that don't line up with what I've taught them, I look at it as a great opportunity to discuss the logic and merit of those ideas (or lack thereof, depending on the circumstance!). Seems like it'd be a good opportunity to help your son learn how to defend against the Christian mindset.

Great! Isn't it awesome that you can post something like that (on this apparently Christian board) and not be censored?


I'm glad you've clearly done your research and have come to a decision you're satisfied with. Sounds like you're pretty absolute, too. In the spirit of respecting others, you might want to talk about the positive things about your own beliefs rather than insulting everyone who may be a Christian on this board...



Interesting way to bow out. I certainly wasn't trying to make you pick up your ball and go home. If I've radically and negatively spun you, I don't see where. If it's that obvious, it should be easy to demonstrate. Anyway, best of luck in 07!

K

Personally, I am bitter that the SEC lost to a Big 10 team yesterday and I don't mind being called bitter about it (especially after USC destroyed Michigan)

LOL!
All praise the mighty 5D!

Amen.


Dan, you rock!

Not at all. I know what I believe and there are many people who dont. I would just ignore their posts and move on.

(getting up on my soap box)
You know, this is really starting to bug me, or as Jen said, is getting really annoying.
People just need to grow up and quit being offended by every little stupid thing. Gadzooks!
Jen, you want annoying! Here is what is annoying.
Everywhere you go you see anti church this or that. Or everytime you say what you believe your labeled a hater or whatever. Or everytime you turn on the tv there is sex this and that and if you try and say anything your intollerant. Or any "science" program or any program has to promote evolution or billions of years..... Or Santa this or Easter Bunny that. Or happy holy days, er, i mean Happy Holidays and spring break.
I can go on and on.
And all we want to do is just protect our freedom. Do we fight and have the ACLU try to change everything? no. we just turn off the programs we dont like, say Merry Christmas to others, etc... And it still offending!
When is the last time someone came to your house and tried to convert you, or came up to you in public and tried to witness to you?!
Maybe Hitler was right and they should just kill off all the religous people. Then the world would be such a better place.
I mean, without religion, there would be, what, more orphans in the world, less hospitals, more kids dead with cancer. More homeless on the street stealing food, people in other countries without food or water or shelter.
Oh wait, am I fogetting the Madalyn O'Hair's Children Hospital or the GLBT global water project? No, why, cause there isnt any.
You really want to see HATE, just look at the way other people treat Christians and such, there is your hate and lack of diversity.
If you want evidence that Christianity is TRUE, just look at how much anguish it causes to people who dont even believe in it. That must say something.

Well...I tried to copy + paste the entire 5D manual (from the pdf)...but I couldn't get it to work on this PC...

(Thank you all for the PMs...it makes me feel like my efforts are appreciated by some.)

Now let's all get naked and mud-wrestle...who's gonna join me?

My point exactly. they were Christians!

If you ever get a chance, get the Rob Bell Nooma video Bullhorn and you will know what I mean.
www.nooma.com

Ummmm.... can somebody tell swan that he can't be Mr. Christian Advocate until he goes home and puts on a shirt.

Johnny!?...............Maccabees................really, c'mon!!??

Dan, I find your posts to be nonsensical(I'm a D200 fan), without merit, and freakin' hilarious.


J

I wouldn't see it as they were forcing anything on me. I play soccer with some devout Muslims. They believe I'm going to hell because I don't believe in their god. It's because of that belief that they try to persuade me (frequently!) to their point of view. They don't want me to go to hell! That's pretty cool of them to try, means they a)are being obedient to what they believe and b) care about me enough to not want me to live forever in hell.

If it really bothered me, and I wasn't getting anything else out of the theoretical board above, then I'd just stop going. Easy as pie.

Amber, I don't know if anyone has said anything but you Avatar is HAUTE!!! (and I am being serious, it is a great photo)

Come on Gators! Who else is tired of the sports media telling us that Ohio St. is so great when they don't play any good teams outside the Big 10?
Now those are fighting words!

And beautifully put Mark.

Go on wit yo bad self, Kevin. You a bad mamma jamma! Hope I don't offend anyone with this comment.

Mark,

People are in the business of looking to be offended. The ACLU is a very wealthy organization.