After the back & forth in the nude threads, the gay thread and other recent disagreements with some of my Christian friends, I feel the need to address some ideas I've been floating about.

1) Do you as a Christian shoot any weddings other than Christian weddings and if you do, how do you reconcile that to your beliefs?

2) Do you as a Christian shoot maternity photos?

3) Do you as a Christian shoot bar/bat mitzvahs? If so, why?

4) If the 10 Commandments "command" you - do you shoot on Saturday or Sunday or both or neither? Or is this all part & parcel of the whole "forgiveness" thing?

I know this is floating down a path I'll probably regret taking. I really enjoy my friends here and I'm sad to see so many issues between the extreme moral right and the rest. Between the gay weddings & nude threads, I'm really thinking that my "friendships" are a WHOLE lot less about knowing my friends and a whole lot more solely about the photography we share. So maybe this is my attempt to understand - the further those threads go the more I regret reading them at all.

M

Never enter those threads...it never ends pretty. Someone always gets hurt. I wish that was not the case, but it is. On other forums I have seen those same threads and I dare not go.

Sorry. I am no help with your question.

1. I have not as of yet.
2. Yes, but I keep them discrete, no nudity. There is nothing wrong with a beautiful pregnant belly!
3. No, I have not as of yet.
4. No, I will not work on Sundays. I have turned down a lot of work on Sundays.

I really don't want to get into an argument here, but here is my take on it. I do not want to participate in anything that I believe is not morally and spiritually right. I beleive in Jesus Chirst as God's own son, but I think I would still shoot a jewish event. I don't believe they are doing something morally and spiritually wrong, they are just missing the main ingredient in my faith. But, I would not shoot a Satanic Wedding. I belive that is WRONG. I would not shoot nudity, I belive that is degrading to women, creates lust in men, no matter how artful it might be. Does this make sense? I do what I feel God is telling me is right, with out participating in what I believe the Bible is telling me is wrong. That does not mean I am perfect, without sin. But, I will try to live a life that is pleasing to God.

I do not feel it would be my place to condemn or lecture someone who called me for photographing something I feel I should not, but I would just turn it down. I believe I need to stand strong on what I believe, and God will reward me for that... in his time.

I hesitate to even get involved in this, but here goes.

1. I am not going to answer this question because I have seen answers on other threads that support what I do and believe and the people posting their answer were flamed and torn apart. I don't think this is a question that can clearly be answered on a forum, it needs face to face conversation to be answered.

2. So far we have not done maternity shoots, but we would if asked. That being said, we would only do them under certain conditions. First, the husband must be present. Second, we would not do them involving full nudity, just tummy nudity. I have seen many very tasteful maternity photos where the mom was wrapped or was wearing some other form of clothing. That is the kind we would be willing to do.

3. I really don't see any reason not to. It doesn't in any way go against my beliefs. We have never done a bar/bat mitzvah, but would be willing to. As a Christian I do not feel that it is a ceremony that my children need to have, but I respect that that is a part of the Jewish culture. I do believe that Jews are God's chosen people. My brother in law is Jewish by race, but really does not follow it as a religion. It saddens me that I know more about his religious heritage than he does. The difference between Judaism and Christianity is that we believe their Messiah has already come in the form of Jesus Christ and they are still waiting for him. I can respect other beliefs even though I don't agree with them.

4. I have struggled with whether it is ok for us to work on Sunday, which is my Sabbath. When we first started our business, we had several times where we had to accept jobs on Sundays. We truly were desperate financially. It felt wrong to me. Very rarely do we accept anything on a Sunday now. We are working towards never working on Sunday and leaving that day as a day for God and our family. We are not perfect in this respect yet, but we are working toward it.

'Matt Antonino' date='December 31 2006, 09:09 PM'
After the back & forth in the nude threads, the gay thread and other recent disagreements with some of my Christian friends, I feel the need to address some ideas I've been floating about.

1) Do you as a Christian shoot any weddings other than Christian weddings and if you do, how do you reconcile that to your beliefs?

No.

2) Do you as a Christian shoot maternity photos?

No.

3) Do you as a Christian shoot bar/bat mitzvahs? If so, why?

I have a couple of times. Jews and Christians come from the same foundational belief system. We both believe in God the Father (Jehova Elohim). We both believe in the inspired word of God. Our major differences began at the birth in Bethlehem...
I have no religious convictions about photographing Jewish events.
However, I don't get to do many anymore since I am so led to witness all the time, to the Jew first and then to the Pagan.

4) If the 10 Commandments "command" you - do you shoot on Saturday or Sunday or both or neither? Or is this all part & parcel of the whole "forgiveness" thing?

I don't shoot Sunday's if I can help it. Sometimes a client has to change the date, and I have to be flexible. I do attend Church (Mass) the night before in order to fulfill my promise to God. The 10 Commandments ask us to keep the Sabbath 'Holy'. Meaning we must rest from our works if we can, but as Jesus said, the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. So it is better to do GOOD on the sabbath then it is to sit in your LaZboy and watch the game all day <- that is actually the deadly sin of Sloth.



I hope this helps.

God created marriage. I have shot non-church weddings. It is not for me to determine whether or not the couple is or is not Christian.

I have been asked to do an Indian wedding (but I was already booked that day).

I ** WILL NOT ** do a non-wedding... commitment ceremony, whatever you want to call it. I will not do a "Gay Wedding". I live in VA and the VA Constitution defines a marriage as between a man and a woman. Which I agree with 100%.


I have not yet. If the subject was comfortable with me doing it, I would do it, as long as no nudity is involved. (other than tummy) Of course I would have a lady present when I am shooting.



Why not?! Are Christians not allowed to shoot Jewish events?

At a Bar/Bat-Mitzvah photography is generally not permitted during the actual service. Typically, you would do posed shots the Thursday before the service.

FWIW. I am a Messianic Jew.

On the other hand, my cousin is Orthodox and would not attend our wedding because it was in a church.



What does "forgiveness" have to do with it? I don't understand the intent unless you are saying that I am breaking the 10 Commandments by shooting on a Saturday or Sunday.

The Commandments say to honor the Sabbath, it does not define what day of the week that is. When I was in college I volunteered at a Christian Youth Ministry for over eight years. The summer camps would run 7 days. Because of the schedule of arrival of new campers and departure of the previous week's campers, we had to run camp on Saturday and Sunday. My day off was on Wednesday. We had a worship service and we did not do any work that day. So, we honored the Lord by setting aside one day during the week in which we did not work.


ETA: Okay, I just realized that I said "...when I was in college, I volunteered for .... over eight years..."!

I started volunteering when I was in college, but I was involved with the ministry since my senior year of high school. I worked with the ministry for over eight years.

PRAISE GOD!

Do you know what tribe your ancestors are from?
I would be so honored to know, Neal.

What brought you to your conversion?
When did it happen?

Can you tell I am excited - I LOVE Messianic Jews!

Neal PM me if you don't mind, I would love to hear more!

Blessings to you!

What a can of worms... as if OSP didn't have enough tension lately.
Tsk, Tsk, Papi!!

(This is me failing at NOT getting involved in this quagmire)

Yes, I will shoot just about any wedding. If anything happens that is too wild I will leave. Hasn't happened yet, but if, for example, an orgy or heavy drug use breaks out in the reception I would leave.
Yes, I do maternity shots. I will also do tasteful semi-nudes under certain circumstances like "For his eyes only" shots. These are between the husband and wife, not to sexualize the woman for other men, so I have no problem with it. I'm sure plenty of others here will disagree with me on that but it has never cause a problem with my walk and it is something that many Christian couples I know really appreciate.
For number 3 the better question is would I shoot an event from another religion such as a buddist ceramony. Yes, I would. It does not challenge my faith.
Shoot on Sundays? Christianity is not about church, it is about a personal relationship with Jesus.

Matt, lets talk off-board about it. IM me.

what if there was no husband?

Don't worry mami! I have an escape plan...It's under these papers over here ... or .. somewhere here!

I appreciate everyone's responses so far. I think I'm going to stew on this for the night before I reply.

1) Do you as a Christian shoot any weddings other than Christian weddings and if you do, how do you reconcile that to your beliefs?
I have shot non-Christian weddings and that doesn't interfere with my beliefs.

2) Do you as a Christian shoot maternity photos?
No, but not for religious reasons.

3) Do you as a Christian shoot bar/bat mitzvahs? If so, why?
I have never been asked, and honestly, I don't really know much about them.

4) If the 10 Commandments "command" you - do you shoot on Saturday or Sunday or both or neither? Or is this all part & parcel of the whole "forgiveness" thing?
I do not work on Sundays. I gave this a lot of thought last year. The only time I make an exception is when my husand is out of time for a lengthy period, and then it is after attending church.

BTW - it is very possible to have great friendships with people even if they have different beliefs. I have lots of friends on the opposite end of the spectrum as I am and it's really not a problem.

Matt, your questions are valid but not really answerable by "the Christians." The discussions you referenced stand to prove that people who consider themselves Christians are diverse in their opinions and interpretations of what they should or should not do.

In this thread alone you already have a Catholic and a Messianic Jew responding. These are two vastly different ways of understanding Christianity.

I know many Christians who agree on 90% of the same things, but the 10% difference is enough that they choose a particular church as opposed to another.

Asking Christians to come to a consensus on anything other than faith in Jesus Christ would be like asking atheists to come to a consensus on anything other than denying the existence of God.

+1, very well said.

I can't help but feel an underlying sense of entrapment in these questions. Just as the Pharisees loaded their questions for Jesus (see Matthew Chap. 22:15-22), it seems that Christians are constantly being set up for charges of hypocrisy. Have you ever done something you said you wouldn't do? Or vice-versa? Then you are a hypocrite. Whether you're a Christian or not. Welcome. The difference is that Jesus has offered forgiveness for sinning, so there's more likey to be a conviction in the heart of a Christian for having done something not pleasing to God. This was obvious on this forum in the recent participation in the new avatars. After the initial fun, there was clearly a sense of remorse for maybe having gone too far. The Bible warns Christians not to take advantage of God's grace by continuing to sin simply because there's forgiveness waiting to bail you out. The Bible also says that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." So we are all guilty of missing the mark. The key is what are you doing with God's offer to be forgiven?
Clearly, this is a forum for photographers of varying beliefs, and I think that for the most part, we are all pretty tolerant and sensitive to each other. There's no reason to create division.

Hey Matt - I feel like we're friends and even if you disagree with me, and me with you - I'll still like you!

1. The only wedding that I will not shoot is a gay wedding. In my mind there is no such thing and just because some court says there is doesn't make it so. Any other wedding committing a man to a woman is well within my beliefs no matter what theirs happen to be. There is a difference between treating someone with respect and condoning their lifestyle.

2. I've never been asked to do maternity photos, but yes I would. I would not be willing to if the client was completely nude. Only for the simple fact that there are some things that I just don't want to see. Religous beleifs or not.

3. Never been asked to do one of those either, but I would. My best friend in second grade was Jewish. I feel that if I am truly a Christian I will have charity towards everyone.

4. Sundays are special to me. It's the day the Lord set aside for me to concentrate on my spiritual side and grow closer to him. I refuse to work on Sunday because I have that choice. I don't know what you mean about the whole forgiveness thing. I am of the belief that we have to work for our salvation. Faith without works is dead. I believe in Christ, I believe in His atonement, I feel it in my life everyday. I do not believe we will get to where we want to be (with Him) by merely being 'saved' and accepting Him as our Savior.

I could go on and on, just like anyone else who is passionate about what they believe in, but I have tried to keep it simple and to the point. If you want to ask me anything else feel free.

Colleen

1. I would not shoot a homosexual wedding. It's not even a real wedding to me. Besides that they cannot legally be married in the US. Other than that I will shoot the others. The bible says to be in the world, but not of the world. I go to a wedding to get great shots of the event, and capture the day. Even if they are non Christians I still respect the fact that they are getting married. Now if the bridesmaids started stripping then I would have to bow out, or leave until tings calmed down. I do not encourage bad behavior, and drink and party to fit in. I am friendly and do my job, and I have not had any problems as that's what their paying me to do anyway.

2. No I don't I send them somewhere else. As long as they were not nude I'm not saying I absolutely would not do it, but I am not comfortable with the idea, and thus would not do the best job for them

3. Same as #1 I would shoot this just like any other event. Just like most jobs I don't only work for people who agree with me. I have to live in this world, and even though I don't agree with many people I still offer a service that is for sale.

4. I don't know about for Jews, but in the new testament the Jewish law was fulfilled, and the spirit of God took over. It was how God planned it all along, and the bible explains. This question actually came up in the early church, and the apostles dealt with it. It was explained that we were to abstain from things like strangled food, sexual sin, and of course things like murder, and laws of life that were in the law still applied. There are many things in the new testament that we are clearly pointed out as sin, but things like the sabbath were changed with the spirit of Christ living in us. We don't have to set aside a specific day of the week. Every day in our lives is supposed to be holy and given to Christ because we have his spirit working in us directly every day.

I know theres quite a bit of heat around here lately, and I am not meaning to be offensive, but Christians have a obligation to stand up for what's right, especially when asked about something, so I will say it like it is.

I have hope that maybe this discussion will end well, with each extreme becoming a little more understanding of other people; but in my experience, that rarely happens in debates such as this.
I'm usually saddened and frustrated by the jaded, stubborn facade that people will throw up in the name of God. I find that these impermeable walls effectively prohibit Christians from being the beacons of caring and love that God wants us to be. Instead, I've known FAR too many people who were turned off by the negative, angry persona of modern religion before they were ever able to realize a loving relationship with Christ.

Then we would ask them to bring a friend. It is more for the propriety issue of not being in an uncomfortable position with the person.

Amen to that.

We are business people folks. We are documenting the lives of people for a fee. It's our living. Taking their photographs does not equate to agreeing with someone's life choices. What if other businesses took the same attitude that some of you are taking?

Example:

(Same sex couple on a date) "I'm sorry, we can not serve you in our restaurant. You're on a same-sex date that could lead to sex and we just can't be party to that."

(Unmarried couple purchasing a home) "I'm sorry, we cannot sell you this condo. You are unmarried, and we can't be party to your immoral lifestyle."

Rediculous, eh? I could go on. It would be wrong for other businesses to deny service or goods to someone based on their belief system, and I believe it is the same for us as photographers. If you're not comfortable with shooting something, then don't do it. That is your right. But I think that your reasoning behind not shooting it may require a little more thought and soul searching. Think about what Mrs. V and I have said and reconsider your opinion.

My impression was that Matt posted this thread to sincerely ask Christians why we believe what we do. I do not think it was his intent to attack us. I am able to respect that others can believe differently than me. I do not appreciate your attack in the above. Just because you may disagree with some of us does not mean you should force us to do or condone something that goes against our personal religious beliefs. If you have no problem with photographing gay unions, then feel free to be their photographer, but quit attacking those of us that do have a personal conviction against it.

Hey Matt - good questions. I don't know if you consider me your "friend" yet, but I would love to be! You and Sarah have definentely helped me and I have enjoyed reading your posts - yall sound like great folks!

1) Do you as a Christian shoot any weddings other than Christian weddings and if you do, how do you reconcile that to your beliefs?
- Absolutely. This does not interefere, in any way, with my beliefs in Jesus. My ultimate goal for the way I conduct my business is that I will meet EVERY client with love, respect, and kindness - that's how God meets me.

2) Do you as a Christian shoot maternity photos? Definantely. They are beautiful, special displays of something that God takes great delight in. You will not see any maternity shots on my website b/c the one session I have done was with someone who did not want them displayed and I absolutely have no problem with that.

3) Do you as a Christian shoot bar/bat mitzvahs? If so, why? Yes, why not?

4) If the 10 Commandments "command" you - do you shoot on Saturday or Sunday or both or neither? Or is this all part & parcel of the whole "forgiveness" thing?
- I will shoot on ANY day of the week, but I will also have a day of rest every week. This is a place where I have to admit my weakness - I'm not always good about following this one, but I understand that God said this b/c he knows better that I do about my need for rest.

Matt - I understand your frustration with the way that Christians have responded to people on this board - I am saddened by it constantly. Sometimes I just think, "If they knew the God I know" then their default would be GRACE, MERCY, and PEACE, rather than judgement, hostility, and self-righteousness. The truth is, I know I'm guilty of those things often, too and honestly, the thought of myself treating others in that way just breaks my heart. I hope that you know that, just as you will find a HUGE variety of beliefs and attitudes amongst non-Christians, you will see that just as much amongst Christians.

I reread what I wrote, and detected no tone of attack nor did I intend one. I simply asked for others to reconsider their opinion in light of what Mrs. V and I posted. For the record, I am also a Christian. I'm all for morality and sexual purity. But I'm also a business person trying to make a living. If I refused service to people because of their sin, I would have no clients at all. In fact, I couldn't even do a self portrait. I used to say I wouldn't photograph a same sex union, but I asked myself how many weddings have I photographed of couples living together out of wedlock? How many of our clients have had sexual relations prior to being married? Probably the majority of them. It seemed a bit hypocritical to me to discriminate on the basis of one sexual sin but not others. And really their personal lives are not my business, and have no bearing on my personal convictions at all. Just because I photograph a couple's wedding that was living together prior to their marriage, does not mean that I condone it. And the same goes for same sex unions. I am simply documenting an event, not celebrating it.

Other businesses do not discriminate for these reasons, and I believe that neither should I. And I agree wholeheartedly with Mrs. V about the message that is sent to unbelievers when Christians focus on these issues. Let the love and the goodness of God and a relationship with Him lead people to repentance. We don't want to shove the wrongness of their behavior in their faces.

Josh and Mrs. V-

RIGHT ON.

Stacy

There have been some great responses to this sensative discussion topic, and I thank you all for what you've added to the discussion.

My own opinion is that of a politically conservative non-christian (yes, such people do exist!)

The only concern that has been raised for me to take issue with was the above comment by Johnny. His answers were from his heart and a strong indication of the depth of his spirituality.

My concern about what he said is that he used his business dealings to enter a religious observance of another religious group, and spread his own religious viewpoints during the event that he was hired to be a professional at.

Think about this... would you, as a member of your faith, hire a non-believer to specifically come into your event and witness their religion? Or, do those who use their professional endevors to spread their own faith cross the line?

While I admire Johnny's depth of belief, I do not feel that his witnessing the belief of his faith in this situation was appropriate for his business. Instead of building bridges to Christ, his net effect was obviously to exclude him from further dealings with members of that group of Jewsih worshippers.

Now I wonder if perhaps his actions did not convince some of those clients to specifically seek out photographers who were members of their own faith.

So, the question I pose (a corollary to Matt's originals)... as a Christian, do you feel that you must witness your faith while you are engaged in a professional endevor? If so, to what degree will you witness, and when will you stop?

1) Sure! I might not choose to convert to Judaism, but if given the opportunity I'd shoot a Jewish wedding in a heartbeat! Same goes with any religion where I would be allowed to photograph.

2) Yep. I have, and I'd love to do more.

3) I definitely would. Just because I'm not Jewish doesn't mean I can't appreciate their rites of passage. I may not be Spanish but I'd be overjoyed to photograph a Quince, which is also the ritual of a culture that I don't belong to -- I see both events in the same light.

4) I would. I view my art as a ministry to the people and families I photograph, and have used Sunday afternoons for that time of fellowship and ministry on a pretty regular basis in 2006. I wouldn't tell a church performer not to sing on Sunday either -- it's all a form of ministry.


That having been said, there are things which are permissible, but aren't beneficial for everyone. In other words, if having a family portrait made on a Sunday would cause a family to feel as if they'd sinned, I would schedule it another day.

Leann

I can understand that. But I don't think it's limited to Christians

Along those lines I remember a story from a pastor I heard once, responding to a woman that thought the church was nothing but a "brood of vipers". This woman said that at least everyone in the world knew they were vipers, instead of denying it like church people. The pastor responded (and I paraphrase): "Well I would disagree with you. I think it's the church people that know they're a brood of vipers. That's why we're there."

"And you know," he said with a smile, "you're welcome to slither on down anytime..."
(she showed up the next Sunday)

Fact is, try as we might, we can't seperate the Church and Christians from Christ. Jesus calls the church "his body" and he is the head. And one of my favorite authors, Dietrich Bonhoeffer says in his book Life Together (a book about Christian Community), that "We (Christians) are the physical representation of Christ to the world." I know that I have not always represented Christ well, and theree are plenty of people in church leadership who both now and in history have abused their authority. But the logical term for lumping the people who have given Christianity a bad name with the rest of the Christians Worldwide (2 billion according to the 1997 Encyclopedia Britannica--and most probably involved in what you call modern religion) is called a Hasty Generalization. :-)
I've had my own frustrations and hurt from churches (almost to the point of giving up on church completely), but I have been incredibly helped by two books Soul Survivor--How My Faith Survived the Church, and Church Why Bother? Both by Philip Yancey. I am now convinced that not only is the church (a group of crazy messed up people--united in the fact that they have been given grace (undeserved mercy) from a loving God) God's plan and desire. But that it is the biggest help to us in growing in our love for God and other people.

You are right though. The most important thing is Love. If Christians--especially American and Westernized Christians--would really follow the words of Jesus, to
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to Love your neighbor as yourself."
We probably wouldn't have a need for this thread. :-)


Matt,

First off--I admire you for questioning. No matter what the motive (though I am very curious as to what has been on your mind that you are asking). A mentor of mine once told and showed me that a faith that cannot take questioning (both internally and externally), is a blind faith.
In the Bible, a man named Paul writes "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." I am confident that the Bible and Christianity can stand up to the toughest questioning. So I don't mind discussing hard questions. That said, I'll answer the easy ones you asked.

1) Non-christian wedding? Sure. Gay? Probably not, though I would be open to considering exceptions.
2)Maternity photos? I haven't yet, but I would like to. For me, tasteful is the key word. I love art, and I believe there is a difference between a seductive nude (one that is meant to excite sexual thoughts or passions), and an artistic nude. I don't think it is often hard to tell the difference.
3) Bar/Bat Mitzvah's? I see them as a traditional custom. I don't see why it would infringe on my faith to photograph them.
4) That Sunday thing. :-) I would prefer not to shoot a wedding on Sunday, but actually because of the commitments and connections I have in my church, not the Ten Commandments. I agree with the prior post that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
The book of Romans Chapter 14 (in the New Testament--after Christ) that Paul guy talks about this very thing. It basically says (paraphrase) that you know, one man will consider one day (maybe Sunday) sacred and holy, another man will consider all days the same. Christianity is not about passing judgement on one another, but try to help each other as much as possible. To be true to your conscience, and what you feel God wants you to do.

Did you know that when Jesus was alive, before they crucified him, the religious leaders of the day got very mad at him for "working on the Sabbath"? In fact, they felt he was undermining their authority and disrespecting God and their scriptures because he would help people and heal people on the Sabbath. He told them "Look, if your sheep fell into a pit on the Sabbath--you would lift it out. Aren't people so much more valuable than sheep?"

Anyway, those are my answers. Now I am curious--What brings it up? And what do you think about all this? I have a feeling that behind the questions you're asking, you have bigger ones (perhaps about hypocrisy or inconsistancy? or what's up with the crazy Christians? ;-)) I'd love to chat about any questions or even accusations you or anyone else might have--if they're a little politically incorrect, or might start a fire here--just PM me. Understanding each other is the best way towards better friendships.

I hope that this was interesting, and that, at the least--I hope that everyone understands I write this with respect for those who disagree with me. :-)

Warm Regards,
~Christina Teichroew

P.S. If someone wants to reply to me directly, you may want to PM since I am not able to check the board as much as I like anymore.

I'll go ahead and answer Matt's questions too, since I went off on a little tangent above.

Yes. My beliefs have nothing to do with what I shoot. I'm documenting an event. And I find the religious ceremonies of other religious groups to be quite interesting and beautiful, though different from my own.

Yes, but not often. I don't do nude images though, but I'm only anti-nude photography for myself. It does not make me "want" the nude woman in front of my lens, but it gratifies my eyes in a way that does not make me comfortable. I'm sure that some of you men can relate, and others it is no issue for.

I haven't yet, but I sure would.



I do take at least one day off per week. I do shoot on Sundays occasionally for clients that have no other day to do it, but try to limit it to one portrait shoot in the afternoon so I can still attend church with my family. And we will also take a Sunday wedding, but will take another day off for the family when this occurs.

Troy,

It really doesn't work that way when you are led by the Holy Spirit.
And i really can't explain it to you that would make you understand.

However, I will say this - although it may seem a vulgar corralation-
it just comes out, I can't control it, it's like a big burb...

It's not that I take a job with the intention to witness, no, I take a job that does not really confilct with my beliefs. And I can be and am usually a very tolerant person.
But when the spirit moves you, you cannot stop it and if you try, you have forced the hand of God.

Try reading the story of Johah to understand this obedience.
Also, look at who accepted Jesus and who did not.
The unbelievers accepted him while the Jews did not.
I am not saying Jews are bad, they just got confused and feared that their religion was falling apart.

So when I have witnessed to Jewish clients (and afterwords there was never any ill will, just mutual disagreement) I was fulfilling what God had called me to do for a time.

You see, when I was getting my start in photography, I assited a reform Jewish photographer. I hung out with him and his family all the time. But Christians are called to witness when moved. And having done so, so many times, the relationships I build do end, because Christ has willed them to.

Again, I really cant explain it other than to say, I am not searching for a fight.
I am only witnessing when Called to do so.

And when God calls, you answer.

Thanks Johnny.

I do understand where you're coming from. My cousin Mark is very much like you. Our family runs in terror if Mark and I ever get on the topic of religion.

I just hope that your passion for the Lord doesn't harm your business.

My own political beliefs are -- I think -- just as passionate as any religious belief structure I've seen in otheres. But, I've learned to keep my political ideas and passions to myself in the business world-- especially when photographing Bar Mitzvah's --- last one I did, mother of the boy showed up sporting a Hillary for Senate button, and asked if I wanted one (we're in Indiana -- not New York!). I politely declined her offer, and stayed on track with business, and non-political personal conversation.

Now, I have considered adding a 10 percent charge whenever I know I'm working for someone on the otherside of the politcal spectrum. j/k

I would like to add to my post above:

We got married on a Sunday. We married on a Sunday because my family & extended family is Jewish. I have a cousin who is Orthodox and would not travel on the Jewish Sabbath (from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday). We felt that having our wedding on a Sunday would accommodate those that wanted to observe the Sabbath and to attend services.

So, since we got married on a Sunday:

The photographer had to work
Florist
DJ
Catering Team
Pastors (the Senior Pastor and Youth Pastor performed the service, the Associate Pastor was my Best Man).
Organist

etc...

Too funny.

The same thing happens to me and my older sister when we get together.
What's nice is, we can still appreciate each others passion when it's over.

here we go ...



Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,

J. Kent Ashcraft

Reading all of these threads, one question comes to my mind; Why is a relationship with God, so threatening? What has God done to anyone to cause them to hate Him or the people who follow Him? I know pride has to do with it, but pride comes along side of Free will... the gift that God gave us to show us how much He loves us.

Here's the bottom line: those who criticize the "right wing" are those that don't have a relationship with God. Josh McDowell said it the best, "rules without relationships lead to rebellion". Those that don't want to establish a relationship with God, will see the words of the Bible, God's Word to us, as an unfair and tyrannical attemp to control us. This is by far the last thing God wants us to do. It's a lie that Satan wants people to believe, to drive us from God. As the Bible clearly states, "for we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms" - Ephesians 6:12

Some may see this and not understand a word of it. I hope that this prompts you to ask yourself, "Why am I so adamant towards God"? "What has He done to me to cause me to have this attitude against Him"?

If I could summarize the Bible in one sentence I would say, "the Bible is about God wanting to reconcile us back to Him". That means God wants a relationship with you, just as you are right now. The Bible is not about rules, Jesus clearly makes this point when he said, "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible". This response was when he was asked by his own disciples, "Then who in the world can be saved?" This is all in the 19th chapter of Matthew, 10th chapter of Mark, and the 18th chapter of Luke, as well as throughout the New Testament. Now with that said, God does have a plan for you. And there are things you must do. There are guidelines to follow. But when you establish a relationship with Him, these so-called rules, become your way of showing your love to Him. By your obedience, you show God your love for Him. Let me state it this way. I don't know if you have a good relationship with your mom or dad, but let's say you do. Your mom or dad asks you to do something for them. Do you do it? If you love them, and have a good relationship with them, you probably do it out of love and respect for them. Correct? If you don't, you probably see the request as a burden or chore, and rebel by not doing it? How you react to their request, truly shows your level of love and respect for them. Your relationship with God works the same way. If you see the Bible as a bunch of rules and burdens, then your relationship with God is obviously lacking insight. True Christians see the Bible as God's message to tell us how He wants us to live. Bottom line is we can't live exactly how he wants us to. We are imperfect. But with the help of Jesus, the perfect one, our substitution of perfection, along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we can try, and be seen by God as acceptable. But it's only because of Jesus, that we are seen that way. We are no better than any other person on earth. I am in the same boat as Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Suddam Hussien, etc... We are all on the same plane, bottom dwellers. But Christ changed me, and he can change you too....

If you're truly honest with yourself, God's existence, is seen everywhere and in everything. When you ask yourself, the deepest questions, there's only one acceptable answer. When you seek out the truth, you'll eventually find it, if you're persistent. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." - John 14:6 What is the truth? Jesus.....

One last thought... Christians say the Bible is God's word... It's His word to us.... Think about this, if God wants a relationship with us, why would He allow error to be written in His message to us? Wouldn't that distort how we see Him? Wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose of His plan? Here's what you should do, "...test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good." 1 Thes. 5:21.
Bottom line: God loves you, no matter what you think, or feel, and He wants a relationshop with you. Don't let people, who are imperfect, distort this view... Don't allow a few people to be your whole view of God... People will always disappoint, God will not...

God is real, and He wants to establish a relationship with you... And that relationship will change everything... "You are truly my disciples if you keep obeying my teachings. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" - John 8:31-32 Free from what? Everything that holds you back....

Pick up a Bible, pray to God to reveal His Truth to you, and read it.... Maybe things will become a little clearer.....

As far as the law is concerned, listen to what Jesus said, "the most important commandment is this: 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength'. The second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' No other commandment is greater than these." - Mark 12:29-31

The purpose of the law is to show us we can't keep it (and that in essence makes us all equal), as stated above. We are imperfect people. The purpose of the law is to point us to Christ. The only perfect one. For it is only through Him, that we can be saved.... When people see by keeping the law as the way to Heaven, they are only being deceived, and walking down the wrong path.

I truly hope this message serves it's purpose.

+1

Ok, I'm going to reply but there are about 25 posts to reply to so please give me a little bit before you continue....



It is true that I started a contentious thread but here's my thing - I used to do the lawyerboy thing. I can't NOT argue when I see something like this come up. I'm not "offended" at all by the Christians - though I swear some of the stuff in posts like this does make me ROFL as I'm sure some of my responses must make the Christians.

I will engage in debates like this with friends because I want to understand them more - and truthfully even though I've dated a Baptist minister who was majoring in religion at Princeton, I don't. She & I often went to bed with headaches from arguing but it was always mostly civil. If someone can't take a civil discussion on this stuff and their feelings get hurt, I'd suggest they figure out what they believe & why. I have NO problem at ALL with people with strong convictions they believe in and a lot of trouble in people who blindly follow whatever they've "seen on TV" and can't afford the reasoning behind it.

God never did anything wrong. As a matter of fact, I believe he is shaking his head about how much people have misunderstood his message and how the people who should be his best marketers are chasing his new customers away with pitchforks!!

I have my own personal relationship with the creator and just because I think the right wing is nuts doesn't mean I am not "right with God" or that I have no relationship with Him (or Her). By nuts meaning they are misunderstanding in a really big way, in my opinion. My relationship with God is my own, and I will not force my own relationship with God onto any other person. "Witnessing to" someone who asks questions is one thing, shoving it down an innocent bystanders neck is another. I dont hate God or Christians, but I dont think that Christians are the only people who have a relationship with God.

I dont believe any religion has the whole story. We each (every world religion, not just forms of Christianity) have little pieces of the big puzzle. Some pieces fit the puzzle and add to our collective knowledge and others are pieces to other puzzles and do not fit and sometimes confuse the issues. The people who sit there in the corner holding onto their little piece saying "I'm the ONLY ONE with the right answer and all the rest of you are DOOMED" are not helping anyone to reach higher understanding.

Nudity needs to be defined here. If you're talking about bits & pieces I think y'all need to remember (those who were here) that we sent Ashley, one of our models, to Luke earlier this year because we don't shoot nudity like that. We do shoot maternity - and tasteful stuff and would "probably" do FHEO although it's an area we haven't crossed in our OWN relationship yet (whether we would). But I think that a lot of people would probably guess after this thread that we shoot this stuff - and honestly we don't. We passed up two or three people last year and referred them onto photographers who do & would be happy to shoot it. So... yeah we're not shooting Maxim girls. Would we shoot a tasteful b/w shot of a pregnant woman showing her naturally? I'm sure.

Lynn, I really respect everything you posted so far. I wanted to talk bout this for a minute because I think it's important to at least your understanding and mine of what the other is seeing.

This part above - "tummy nudity" - I assume you'd shoot foot nudity and hand nudity and probably even arm nudity and just face nudity? Where you limit it is based on where you were born. I mean - let's just say you were a devout Christian born into Ireland. You'd shoot a lot more nudity because you'd shoot up until it was against your morality there. Like you shoot up until it's against your morality here.

If you won't shoot nudity because it's nudity, why do you shoot bellys? If you won't shoot nudity because it turns someone on, you can't shoot feet. Really, you can't. Foot fetishes are probably one of the more common sexual fetishes. Probably third behind t&a for all any of us know. If you've reconciled your beliefs to shooting nekkie tummies and nekkie foots, would you shoot cleavage? Or is the limit nipple related? No matter where you put that artificial line, it's an artificial line. To those who don't see what you see, it's inconsistent.




I didn't have much to quote of yours Johnny - like Lynn, I respect that you are being consistent but you understand the world. If you shoot those events, you are still you, you're not setting it aside to make money to feed your family or to earn a bigger check. It makes 'sense' to me what you are saying you feel.



Neal - regarding your first point, you confused the issues and so I have to sort them out. You said God created marriage and then you will not do a gay wedding and you talked about VA Constitution. If the VA Constitution declares that gay marriage is legal in 5, 10 or 15 years, but God created marriage I assume that you will still not do them? If gays do become a protected group (and I'll JOIN some of you in praying that we don't get more & more "protected groups") then what will you do if it becomes quasi-illegal for you to deny service to someone based on their sexuality? Will you fight that? I know a lot of people will. Christianity is so diverse I have to ask you individually...



So would we.

I respect your opinion... I have one question for you (and please don't take this as a personal attack, it's just food for thought). If there were a room of 30 people, and they were asked to close there eyes and point their finger to where they thought North is. For sure there would be people pointing in every direction. Could everyone be right? Here's the bottom line: Is there such a thing as absolute truth? If so, everyone can't be right.... Like I stated in the earlier thread... "Test everything, hold on to what is good"... If you truly seek out the truth, you'll find it.... I don't know everything, and never will, but I know Jesus, and He surely does... He changed me... and that's my testimony...

Truly! This is why I am in this thread, actually. I don't think people are friends if all we know about them is that they take nice photos. I want to understand the PEOPLE on here better and if that's contentious for some of them well then I need to know that as well. It's important for me to understand how my friends think and what they think, not just "do they think" (although we'll see about that too in some ways I guess).

I appreciate ALL of the responses to this thread so far - it's great discussion material and I'm sorry if people are offended by the talk of religion but honestly if it's so important in so many people's lives, why NOT talk about it? Of course people may disagree - we ALL disagree. (I'll put MY beliefs at the end of this whole reply too)





This is why I asked - so I didn't assume all y'all were Gavin. I needed to find the many distinctions so I could clear my own mind about what people felt. I'm glad for all of the replies so far and it's far better for me to have all this info in my head than it is for me not to and make grandiose assumptions based on what I think you think.



The intent of my question was this - if you are trying your best at a Hindu wedding which is a religious and very sacred ceremony, are you not helping them to revere their own religion and doesn't your beautiful lasting memories serve to support their own beliefs that what they are doing & feeling is right? You are creating beautiful photographs of a ceremony that when they look back upon those photos will call to them - in effect helping them to connect with their religion.

I asked question 1 because I sometimes struggle with this - I feel like my own beliefs support a LOT but sometimes at VERY religious ceremonies I feel extremely out of place like I'm watching something & "participating" in something I should not be because of my own feelings.

Sadly you misunderstand the intent of my post dramatically. If I wanted to argue your religion, I could do that all day - but that's just mean because I've done the same argument 300000 times and I know the answers to all those questions and how to proceed in that argument. I also know that nobody ever convinces anyone of anything so that is not my intent either. My intent is to get to know my fellow OSP'er better. Anything else you're feeling from that is your own background not me.



There IS division. I am not creating it. In fact, I'd rather talk about it all day than hide behind a monitor and pretend it's not here and hope when nekkyavatar goes away so do our divisions. They won't - they become more divisive when nothing gets resolved. I pulled ALL this crap into one thread so that we can talk, sort stuff out as best as it is going to be sorted out and go on being FRIENDS. I think talking about this with my Christian friends IS the way to get past this. I'm sorry you feel like my questioning your beliefs creates division. None of us believe exactly the same things. None. If you think you & the guy sitting next to you believe exactly the same things, have a GOOD long talk about a whole lot of issues with him. You'll disagree on a lot but agree on the nature of God & Christ. There's a LOT more to agree/disagree on. If we all had to agree to not be divisive, we'd never speak to another soul.

No, no, thats not what I meant. I dont mean that everyone is right, like in nursery school. LOL. I think that the Creator and the "meaning of life" and all that is a huge thing and that maybe one religion doesn't have the whole answer. And I do mean that I think some Christians misunderstand the message by using Christianity to feel superior and righteous. Some people use their religion as a total excuse for all kinds of things.

By the way, I grew up in the Methodist Church. Went to Sunday School, sang in the choir and was avidly into Youth Fellowship. I have since become Unitarian Universalist (nobody burn anything nasty on my lawn please. ) because of the way I believe that there is more there than has been explained as of yet.

I am very happy to hear that Jesus has had a positive impact on your life. Jesus has a wonderful message. I will test everything and hold onto what is good. I promise you.

Yeah! Sarah! Totally agree with what she said... except for one thing (my turn to be lawyerly!)

"The Right Wing" should be considered differently than the "Religious Right" in the political world.

I was once extremely liberal because I was tired of the Evangelical Right Wing politicos telling me to do everything their way.

Only after I learned to seperate the moral side from the fiscal and social aspects was I able to appreciate the political side of the "right wing". Now, because the issues that matter most to me, fiscal policy, foreign policy and national security, are best represented by the right wing, that's where I am.

Please, for those who wish to add political viewpoints to the ongoing discussion... "Religious Right" is probably the best term to use when addressing the evangelical movement in the political spectrum.

We now return you to your reguarly scheduled discussion.

I think 1 I covered in my post about why it sometimes confuses ME to be part of someone's holy ceremony. You can say that you're not a part, but to me, if you're creating the memories of it, attaching their feelings to their worship and giving them another way to worship, you are. How many people will see your photos and think about their God? It's something that I deal with and I'm surprised more of the Christians aren't worried about at all.

I think #2 is why we don't shoot the Maxim girl as I said above. lol Some things I simply don't need or want to see!




I have gotten more PM's about this one issue than all others put together in the last 24 hours.

So to the Carries, Jills, all those concerned for those of us who aren't Christian - you're right. The facade of Christians is what I pointed out to Gavin before - that if you say things like "I appreciate that someone hasn't lowered their standards" you put everyone else on the outside and it limits your understanding of the world around you.

Everyone, every, single, person, has their own relationship with God. The negative, angry persona of religion DOES affect those who aren't on the inside in a bad way - instead of being like their forefathers and just simply pushing religion on everyone whether they wanted it or not, modern Christians are more than content to be smug and righteous whether they are right or wrong.



Thank you Lynn.

My questions are sincere - it's sad that whenever religion is brought up the religious feel attacked so thoroughly. As I said, if I wanted to have that discussion I could - but this isn't that.

As far as "attacking those who have a personal conviction against it" - my only analogy and it's a bad one is the Civil War. Brothers fighting brothers over slavery. If we didn't "attack those" in some way (hopefully not in the guns way!) we would be guilty of condoning those racist beliefs to this day. Someone who has a belief SHOULD stand up for it - pro or con gay weddings. (and I still say just send them ALL to us - we'll shoot them all day!)

I'm glad you will test everything... If you want to read a testimony about someone you may share some commonalities with, Read Josh McDowell's testimony, or Lee Strobel. Very powerful stuff... You may even get a kick out of reading Philip Yancey's The Jesus I Never Knew. It comes from a point of view that very few people see. Best wishes in your pursuit of the truth...

What does everyone think of Pictage?

Totally understand this and I guess what I'm trying to find out is which is the most prevalent on OSP and how that relates to what we do (such as the nekkytar thread). I guess what we're after is some understanding of each other - to eliminate the division that was talked about. Understanding, even without agreement, SHOULD bring us all together. We should all know that we don't know everything & we have a ton to learn. Anyone who is willing to accept that they may have something in this life to learn from someone who disagrees with them is someone I will continue having productive conversation with. Anyone who says something along the lines of "if you don't agree, you're simply wrong" is being... uh... close minded. And I can't deal with people like that very well.