I thought it would be interesting to explore our notions about price range and markets. How do you feel about where you are. Do you feel like a middle market photographer? A high end photographer? Does this just have to do with price? Is it a perception on your part or the client's part?

Have fun with your answers. I'd love to use feedback for my pricing talk during OSP South 3.

Hmmm, none of the poll options really worked for me ... I'd say :

Low End : $500 to $1500
Lower Middle : $1500 to $3500
Upper Middle : $3500 to $5000
High End : $5000 and up

My packages are $3500 to $6000, so I'm around the Upper Middle. Most of the people I know here in Austin are around the same as me.



Does anyone really think "Middle" for $9,000 to $12,000?!?!?!?!?

Yep... not enough options:

Central Indiana:

Uncle Bob: Under $1,000
Low: up to $1,900
Mid: $2,000 to $3,500
High: $4,500 and up.

There's kind of a gap in between some of the categories. This is because I'm listing the low to mid package price for each category. In the price model of low/mid/high, the business model is usually set to draw most clients to the MID price point for that vendor.

I agree with Sarah.

I think Low End is : 500-1800
Middle: 1800-3000
High End 3000-10,000 (though most...not all, but most... Canadian photographer max out around $6500)

+1. My base package (Coverage only) starts at $2500, but my complete packages range from 3500-5000, and I feel that I am in the middle end where I live. It will be interesting to see what other people have to say in my area

Interesting Sarah...

In your brackets, the upper middle would barely constitute a living wage for a single, full-time photographer. Anyone disagree with that statement?

Hmmmm ... I'm the sole money maker now in my family since hubby quit his job in April. We're doing pretty good - with four kids and a studio in downtown Austin. It's definitely been "livable" for us.

Edit : You should add a poll option for what people consider a "decent living wage" ... really! I'm sure the answers would be all over the board. Some people are perfectly happy making $30,000 a year. Some aren't comfy with double that much. It would be interesting to see what people's goals are!

But, many photographers are 2nd income earners.

Also geography has a large roll to play. Cost of living on the coasts is generally higher than here in the midwest.

So your numbers are going to be subjective to the cost of living for the individual photographers, as well as whether they are using their photographic income as a secondary family income (eg: Dan W and Myself) , or as primary family income.

My numbers aren't based on anything... just a fact-finding mission.

How do you define living wage? If you figure 30 weddings a year at $3500 each with 30% or less for your cost of goods, you will make $73,500. Of course you would then also need to subtract your other business expenses such as equipment replacement and upgrades, insurance, etc. That still seems like a living wage to me. Of course there are some places like NYC that the cost of living is so high that that would not be a living wage, but that is also figuring it based on the low end of what she listed for upper middle. It also only factors in 30 weddings a year, and someone who is doing this full time very well may do more than that. I know we have set up our business so that we try to keep our cost of goods below 30%, so that is a pretty generous amount to use for this example. I know our family of 5 is living on a lot less than that at the moment.

I don't want to make it too personal... But if you're willing to share, that's fine.I'm not the primary bread-winner in my home. So, it's interesting to hear. So, you would consider yourself middle-upper in your price range? Do you feel like you are earning middle-upper pay?That's Jesh's starting range by the way... And from what I've seen, his clients aren't just the uber rich.Are you figuring in marketing to COGS, Lynn? My print advertising this year was almost $10K. I'm not arguing... just egging on the conversation.

Jesh is Jesh ... there aren't too many like him!

I don't mind you asking questions about numbers. I've only been in business two years so I still have some old lower-paying contracts to finish out, but most of this year's clients paid around $3000. Clients booked for next year are paying around $4500 on average. My COGs is low - around 15% tops. That's PLENTY of profit to live around here (at least for us!)

I don't include marketing in my COGS either ... but I only advertise in one local mag and it's fairly inexpensive.

Cool! Thanks for your candor Sarah... It helps...

I definitely don't pretend to have all the answers. But I've got some theories.

I'd love to hear 'em!

While we'd definitely love to earn more, what we're earning pays the bills at home and at the studio, lets us put our kids in good schools, take them on summer vacations and buys me all the chocolate pop tarts I can eat. I'm a happy camper

You know, I don't think there's ANYONE in Austin that's really super high end. At least I've never heard of anyone (?) Maybe I should double my prices and be the JC of ATX (ha!)

I don't doubt what you're saying... I just wonder where we get our assumptions about super high end.

I cost a lot less than a new Toyota. And I think in the long run, what I do is more meaningful.

Oh, I completely agree! I tell people all the time ...

How much did you pay for the last computer you bought? Or the big plasma screen TV in your living room? Those things will only last a few years and DEFINITELY won't get passed down to your children or grandchildren like photos will. Your photos are the most important items in your home - why wouldn't they be the most expensive, too?

so, can we admit that many of us are undervalued?

I feel that way sometimes. I feel like I should cost more than the ring... more than the flowers.

Don't you guys?

So, the question becomes: How do you value yourself?

Shane,

Do you really feel undervalued by your clients? Do you think they feel that way when they book you or after they have received your deliverables?

-Bill

I've never had a client say... "wow, we paid way too much for you."

I know for a fact that I've undercharged people based on what they were capable of paying. People paying $200,000 for a wedding shouldn't be paying the same as people paying $20,000 for a wedding.

Yes I was asking if you FELT undervalued. If a guy that makes $100,000 a year buys a BMW, should he pay as much as a guy that makes $10,000,000. a year?

Is that what you are referencing? In my old sales world, we always said don't leave money on the table. This I feel is what you are referring to.

Do you only want to have clients in a certain income bracket? If so, isn't it up to you not to do business with the others? Yes photography is a business and we need to make profits. There are way too many out there not doing that. If you think of the industry more of an ART then you come develop a price plan that will be inline with art prices.


This is where the Yervants do business. I think a while back be bought his staff cars. That was an Oprah moment.

I don't feel undervalued by my customers, as I've set my rates. I do feel undervalued by the beautiful couples that I want to shoot and don't, because I didn't show them enough value in paying my rates.

-Bill

No, I am not figuring advertising in COGS. I would figure that in all the other expenses, I just didn't list it. We don't do very much paid advertising, so that wouldn't be a huge factor for us with our expenses.

In our market, I think I only know of one photographer who charges $10,000 for a wedding, and I am pretty sure they have lowered that. They used to have it be a huge package that was pretty much all inclusive, but from what I understand, most people would remove a lot of what was included and get the price down to closer to $5000. We start at $2500, and we are in the mid to high range in our area.

Let's look at the world of Beef... who leaves money on the table?

I just came from a very nice Dinner at Ruth's Cris

Total bill for 2 people was over $100.00

Same two people could eat at Outback for under $50.00 for about the same amount of food

Now relate that to wedding photography.

Shane and I both have years of experience as journalists. Mine is more photo related if I recall correctly. But I live in the Midwest, and Shane is in a coastal region.

our CoGS is about the same, our experience is close, but not identical, and our markets shape out differently.

Now add in someone with two years experience. No prior professional photography experience, and living in a totally different part of the country.

Is this the same as Outback vs. Ruth's Cris?

Should we all charge the same amount?

You should list everything in your COGS... the stamps you use... the amount of energy you expend to lick the stamps. I'm not a perfect business man. I don't keep track as much as a should... but I have a feeling that we're seriously killing ourselves in this profession. And we're getting a reputation of being overpriced! It doesn't make sense. No one ever says the florists or the lighting experts are overpriced....just some food for thought...keep it going...




No no no... I definitely want to address this. Pricing should be organic. It should relate to your skill set. Marketing is a huge part of it. But the foundation is the work.They have a great saying down here... you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.But once people get to a certain point, they fall down. I'm just trying to figure out why.

competition.

Catch 22 version...

Word of Mouth is our best referral source/Marketing track

To generate WoM, you need clients

The more clients you have, the more WoM you get.

There are more clients in the lower price categories than in the higher ones. Easier to keep quantity higher, in a lower price bracket than in the top price bracket.

Plus, there is awareness amongst photographers, that bouncing into the top bracket allows you to work less weddings, for the same net income.

Working less weddings = less WoM. Now one is timid... because they believe they have to lower price to get more events, more WoM.

Just my 2Cents. Take it for what it's worth.

You can be the McDonald's of the market... or you can be the boutique gourmet eatery.

The last time I talked to Jose Villa, he had 50-plus weddings this year. Word-of-mouth comes from a lot of places - not just weddings.

I'm not discounting what you're saying.... just giving a different perspective.

In my own case, high prices has definitely meant less bookings. At least for this year.

I think you are wrong about what COGS include. I looked at several sources, and they all state that COGS includes all costs directly involved in the production of making a final product, including the labor involved. They do not include indirect costs, such as the cost of your sales force and the cost to get your product to market. I would assume that this means that your advertising expenses, insurance, etc. are not included in COGS. I do include all other costs related to producing the product in my figuring of COGS. I actually do keep track of our COGS pretty thoroughly, and that is what I am basing my statements on.

For the sake of this argument, I'd suggest removing the Rolls Royce level from the discussion. Jose is great, but if his price skews the curve in his market you don't need to emulate it to succeed.

The creme de la creme is a great aspiration. But, to get the good photogs to be priced accordingly, you probably need to stay in the realm of reality for that photographer. We'd all like to be the Joe Bs or Denis Rs or Yervants. These guys (and the gals) are the exception not the rule.

So, reviewing their policies will be wise, but their situation, is not our situation. We don't get many celeb weddings here in the midwest, and Collin Cowie doesn't hang out here very often.

But, we can strive to adjust good business and marketing practices to fit our own markets. Do we need to do exactly what Joe B does? Go hang with Collin C? Get J Lo to hire us? Probably not going to happen in every market.

Our market here has one or two photogs at a $6800 or higher starting price. When I look at pricing, I need to take them out of the equation - but still be aware of them. Until I'm comfortable with the idea of being the one to set the upper end price point, I need to be aware of the upper end (here in Indy: Bobbi, Jessica S., Turtles, Swan, KC Ferrill) - That's the level I'm participating in. The one or two people at the extreme end of $6,800+ starting point can be the next step... but modelling on their uber level too early is potential to cause heartache.

To compete on the Rolls Royce level, one had better be able to provide Rolls Royce quality and SERVICE -- part of that is the atmosphere as well as.

You won't find many Rolls Royce dealerships operating out of a mobile home park, so trying to run an uber business by meeting your extreme upper end wedding consumer by meeting in a McDonalds probably isn't going to happen often.

If you look hard enough, I'm sure you can find a photographer selling 10K packages out his/her trailer. But, those guys are the exception.

Just saying you need to work on learning the rules before you try to break them. Just like in photography, you need to learn how to make technically sound, and well composed images to learn why an image is good -- then you can break the rule of thirds, have soft focus, and all the other taboos that would normally kill an image -- become the reason the image is awesome.

As far as accounting goes, Lynn's right. Maybe a better term for this discussion would be "cost of doing business." That would include COGS, insurance, vehicle usage, equipment, marketing, etc.

I'm not certain about the ranges for my market here in Eastern Washington - I'm just moving into weddings. Judging from craigslist, the low end starts at about $900 and goes to $1500 or so. Middle starts at maybe $1800. The highest priced photographer I know of in my area starts at $2500. There are several photographers in the area who I think might start at more than that, but I don't know. They don't advertise their prices, and I've never asked.

I do have a question. When you define a market range of $x,xxx - $x,xxx, am I right to assume that means the starting price? Is that with or without an album? A photographer who starts at $2,000 with a 15 spread album is priced a lot differently than a photographer who starts at $2,000 for coverage only.

Sorry to veer slightly off course — I've always been curious.

I meant you should include every cost into the final analysis....

I'm not trying to redefine anything... sorry for the confusion. :-)

jen is talking canadian dollars though isnt she?

I think a lot depends on your market, how you advertise (obviously people who live in markets where print advertising is necessary will have a lot more money going out the door than those who can rely on word of mouth). I think a lot also depends on the cost of living where you are. A lot also depends on what else you shoot, I don't only shoot weddings. Weddings are my primary job function and what takes up most of my time and provides most of my income - but I also photograph portraits & boudoirs on a fairly steady basis.

In the city I live in I can start at $3k (which is rarely the package people book, but it's a jumping off point - I average $6-9k by the time it's completed), still pull in 6 figures, and make it as a single mom/sole source of income. But, I can also buy a 3000 square foot home in a nice, safe, older area for $150k - try pulling that off in most cities. We also have no state income tax, higher sales tax... but no state income tax. That also makes a difference. While I have friends paying $12k a year for each of their kids to go to private school in other cities - I'm paying around $7k. The area I live in is just not that expensive comparably. I also don't try to live beyond my means, if anything I live well below them - that also makes a difference, a HUGE factor in how much money people need to make is the kind of lifestyle they expect. I grew up in a family who paid cash for everything, never relied on credit cards or personal loans, bought houses that were half the price they could technically afford, and bought a car then drove it until it died. Most people now are living at or beyond their means - that makes them require a higher income.

So, I'd say what's "High End", "Mid-Range", and "Low End" is going to vary dramatically from market to market. Could I live comfortably on my current income in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, etc...? Probably not - but if I lived in those markets there would also be a lot more clients willing and able to pay the kind of money that I would have to make in order to make a good living there. There's just no way to compare the pricing between photographers in vastly different markets.

Also, while we have half a zillion photographers here, we have maybe a dozen or so who're full time and rely on it as their sole source of income. The fact that there are so many part timers does bring down the "average price" for wedding photography in the area because they don't have to charge what full time photographers do.

Sooooo, our "mid-range" photographer's are probably charging $2k-ish - while, in other markets I'm sure it's a lot higher. In some markets I'm sure it's lower.

Okay, sorry for my rambling, I'm on vacation so I've actually had time to think today

To follow up Melody's great points I'll just add this musing:

Isn't it interesting that [insert really high-earning photographer]'s name comes up in almost every price discussion.

I understand the relevance -- though I would argue, like Troy, that it's almost immaterial in the discussion -- but it just cracks me up...

Carry on (my wayward, Shane).

But melody... the prices in the major metros don't really seem to represent a huge shift...

The NYC photographers aren't all starting at 10,000. There might be a few more of them... but I'd say the rest have prices comparable to the rest of the country. Why is that?

Look at how many are full time vs how many still have day jobs, how many are sole providers, how many still live with their parents... So many people see weding photography as a side-job to make extra cash or to fund a photography hobby. I really don't think there are that many full time breadwinners in any given market. The ones who are, have to be charging more.

For Minnesota, I would say these are the markets (correct me if I'm wrong, fellow Minnesotans...)

Low-end: $800-1200
Mid-range: $1500-2000
Mid/Upper range: $2500-$3000
Higher end: $3500-$6500

As Troy said, there is a gap between some of these, but I don't see brides that have a say, $2100 budget... or a $3200 budget.

If I'm correct, I'm not sure that there are many photographers above that price in MN. With my experience though, these are the budget ranges that brides seem to have, and the areas that photographers seem to be in. It is absolutely different than in California, I know that for sure:)

Ginger, according to The Wedding Report, there were 19,545 weddings in the Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI - Metropolitan Area in 2008. The average spending on a wedding is $35,775 (well above the national average).

Here's the really promising number. There were 3,936 weddings being planned in '08 with a budget between $35,775 and $71,550.

Are there 3,936 "higher-end photographers" to cover those weddings?

Sarah, in Austin, Texas... the average spending for a wedding in 2008 is/was $29,751. There were 1,144 weddings with a spending range of $29,751-$59,502. There were 325 weddings with a budget above $59,502 (with an average spending of $120,592 at the high end).

There was a total market value for all weddings reported of $209,731,945 in Austin in 2008. Did you feel like you got a fair portion of that $209 million?

Folks with experience and developed artistic vision need to start moving into the higher price brackets in every market. Period. You guys are holding the industry back.

WOW!

For Orlando, I think it's something like...

Low: <1500
Middle: 1500-3000
Upper Middle: 3000-5000
High: 5000+

But I could be wrong, cause I'm new.
At least among the people I know and network and who are getting married, this is probably what they'd think. I don't flow in too ritzy of a circle.

Shane -

You should really be asking the brides this question. They will determine the market, not us.

And Sarah, there is a high end market here in Austin - you just don't know about it.

I don't know if this applies to anyone else, but I recently heard something that surprised me, especially since my area is about 3 1/2 hours away from Seattle. According to one of the higher end photographers here, a lot of our higher end weddings end up with photographers from Seattle.

That suggests to me that not many photographers in my area have made it into the high end wedding market. Apparently, brides here are willing to pay high prices, but virtually no one is charging those high prices here.

I disagree somewhat. The bride has the ultimate say... But I've had several brides who spent beyond what they had planned on spending for a photographer. I have many say that photography "is the most important thing" to them. Yet, we are not priced as the most important item of the day.

If photographers took a unified front and charged what they really felt like they were worth, they would change the market. We have more power than you think. Raleigh is not the biggest market in the country, but studios around here are wising up. There are more $5K+ photographers than ever before.

Troy mentioned that I lived in a coastal town, so my market was vastly different. Not so, according to The Wedding Report. I suggest anyone who is serious about learning about their own market invest and download real statistics for their area... I think it's quite eye-opening.

I was talking more about the cost of living. You used "living wage" in one reference to price. Living wage in NYC is a lot more than in Indianapolis. Here we can find a first floor 2 bedroom apt for around $600 a month (less if you're not picky on sharing the street with your neighborhood crack houses.)

What is the cost of living along the major population centers on the East coast vs. Indiana?

Brides will still have realistic budgets based on their incomes/parent's incomes, and the costs in their friends circle.

The one number I've never been able to validate, is the number of photogs in the wedding market. I've seen guesstimates, but not actual numbers. Tax information doesn't break "photographer" out into various market segments, so even that info has to be massaged about how many wedding photogs are serving a given market.

Hmmmm... What an interesting little thread. My input really doesn't matter terribly much. I priced myself low mids $2800-$3400 with some "Stuff" included to sweeten the deal and a small spread because I'm still working on word of mouth. The goal is that in 3-5 years I want to be charging around the $3k mark for coverage only, and everything else is an extra. It's not my sole source of income so I'd like to just take the advantage of that to be choosier about the brides and so i can always keep the energy level up.

And Melody, that's awesome that TN doesn't have an income tax. I'll be honest, I didn't believe it, I had to read it for myself. That's darn cool. I honestly didn't even know there were states without income tax.

Thanks for your comments, everyone. Of course, the poll was meant to spark some discussion. It's definitely not scientific. I was trying to get a feel for what people thought the middle market was.

My feeling is that surrounding any metro area, the low range is an average wedding sale of $2500. Mid-market is (or should be) an average sale of $5,000 and high end should be an average sale of $10,000.

You are only as good as your average sale. So, if you are a photographer with a package range of $3,500-$10,000... you are not a $10,000 photographer. You are what your average is and that is what market you are in.

Full-disclosure:
I'd consider myself a mid-market photographer with an average total per wedding sale of $5,000 for 2008 (so far). I have never sold a wedding for more than $6,900, while my packages go to $10,000. I have 16 total weddings booked for this year. So, volume is definitely impacted by a price increase. But I fully intend to have 20 or more weddings booked by the end of the year. I'm doing less and making more this year.

For 2009, I'm changing my pricing strategy to start at $5,000 for "custom packages." I do not want to make less than my average sale for this year. I'll let you know how it goes. I have my first meeting with the new prices in place scheduled for this week.

It seems like the people that sell weddings in the $2,500-4,500 range believe that anything higher is a fairy tale - that only Dennis Reggie and Joe B. or any other big name can get to. This is why the high end market is under-served.

Don't get me wrong, it is very hard to increase your prices. You have to have a solid foundation of work and a good plan. But I think too many people drag out the same old excuses for not increasing pricing.

'state' tax. texas does not have a state tax, but arizona does. you still have income tax, just not 'state tax'.

I have to say, I think your metro area may be different than many of our metro areas. Midrange for our area would be about $2500 to $5000, with the average being somewhere in the middle of that. It seems as if most people who have posted on this thread have said something similar. I think your numbers are way to high for real life experiences, at least for where I live. We are in the mid range I listed. Most of our wedding customers are doctors and other professionals of that type of level. Some of them are not, and just really value their photography so they spend a higher percentage of their budget on us. When I have done studies of how much people are and will spend in this area, most think that we are more toward the high end and would never consider spending $10,000 or more. The poll that you did in this thread, doesn't really show much, because it does not actually offer as choices the ranges that most photographers have listed for low middle and high. I know I didn't vote, because your choices for mid range are completely inaccurate for my area. You really should have had more choices, to make it more accurate. It is all well and good to say, if everyone were to raise their prices we would all make more. The problem is that there is no way that is going to happen. There are always going to be different ranges, which means there are always going to be different price points for people to choose from, so it is not going to force people to spend more.

Yes, but as Sarah said, Jesh is Jesh. Anyway, I've upped my prices to $2699 base, and business has definitely slowed down.

I've only had one client pay that since I've raised my prices. I did book one for 2010 at that price, but with an incentive of adding two extra hours to my base of 8.

I do think we are undervalued. Especially when I hear clients admit to paying $5000 for decorations. Unfortunately you can't usually just double your prices and expect to compete when there are many other fantastic photographers charging way less than that!

Pricing myself out of my referal base is not something I'm comfortable with.

i just let a couple haggle me down a bit - they just wanted a cd of the processed prints and just 4 hours of coverage so i did. i didnt have anything else booked so why not.

then i find out they are going on this elaborate two week honeymoon in mexico (mexico from here is a little more expensive ) - so i feel undervalued, taken advantage off, etc. but that's my fault.....

Shane, I guess I'm not intentionally trying to pick a fight with you, but I am going to point this out and not feel bad about it because I think it's what you would do in the same situation.

I find it interesting that you are willing to make a statement like this when not five days ago you laid into someone about focusing on their own work and not other people's, and here you are now doing the exact same thing. If you want to charge more, go for it. You don't need everyone else charging more to validate your prices. If you're good enough and people want you bad enough, they'll pay for you. Hence the whole "Jesh is Jesh" argument.