Ok my new pricing was due July 4th and I am behind.I have a few concerns I need help with.First, I have identified my profit losers that I currently have and I want to turn them around.

1. Until now I have given digital proofs for all wedding packages. Printed only at 4x6 but still. I believe this has damaged my album sales. Plus I feel that a wedding album is extremely important. I am considering not offering this at all, or not offering with my lower wedding packages, or only offering it at a certain print sale, or only offering it after a year with an album purchase.

2. Engagement session. Now don't get me wrong. I love doing these. But I spend so much time on them and I rarely make a good sale. Plus for some reason no matter how much I try and educate them prior to their projection appt they always seem disappointed that they don't get their images for free! Since these are always custom location sessions my session time before processing is 3 hrs min plus processing and sales appt....then nothing. For seniors for the same amount of time my avg is 1200. So I want to do these....I love them but I feel like I am passing up 1200 sale and I am not yet at the point where I don't need the money.

3. Discount. The last 2 years I have offered a discount on wedding prints for 30 days. 50% off. However I recently redid my prices to have the correct COS according to ppa (which I was told is a min of 25% now). And I realized that in discounting these portraits I am not getting enough to cover my overhead. I would love some input.

Candice

Eeek. I'm sorry, but I find your post a little hard to follow.

yeah me too. I wonder what happened to my formatting. I will try and fix it.
Candice

Ooo much better. I have never heard of prints being discounted. I wonder if you didn't discount them, if you'd still have the same volume of sales?

One more thing I thought of.Has anyone ever done a "lifetime portrait membership" and/ or included it in your wedding packages? I heard about it on a photovision dvd and I am thinking about it.

Candice

Is that supposed to be helpful?

Yeah, he's really good at being helpful (not).

Here's what I think ...

1. I say offer the disc only with an album (if you really want album sales). I did that for a while and nobody really complained. I think if you go with the "disc after a year" thing, people WILL complain. I think people feel cheated a little that way - like you're holding their photos hostage and trying to milk 'em for more money.

2. If you don't enjoy them as much and don't make much money from them - make all e-sessions a la carte and price them so that it's worth your time. Do you not want to give the files? Maybe you could offer a CD for a BIG price - like $1000. If they want it, they'll pay. If not, they won't. Then you can focus on seniors.

3. Maybe just discount them by 20% for the first couple of weeks. That gives people incentive to buy, but doesn't eat up all your profits (?) Or just ditch the discount. I don't think many people do that, so it's not like people will be expecting it.

Good luck! Pricing is tough!

XOXO, Sarah Q

To me, e-sessions are vital on many levels.

I include them in all my wedding packages, and I include a 10x10 guest book in every package as well. Here's why.

* E session is great, as we all know, for getting to know the couple, finding their comfort level, getting them to relax with you, getting them to love your work on a first-hand basis.

* Pre-bride and pre-groom forward links to e-session pictures to friends and family, spreading your name. They also usually link to you on their wedding website, if they have one.

* Guest book displayed at wedding reception lets people see your work in printed form, to appreciate the photography for its intended purpose -- DISPLAY. The e-session pictures are fun and funky. They love the book, they take a card, they watch you working all night, they tell their friends what a great job you did and how cool you are (you, not me). Plus, bride and groom LOVE the book and will cherish it forever!

* Your investment in time just paid for itself in the sense that you don't have to advertise. (Base price for the wedding includes the cost of doing the e session, the book design and the book.)

Everything doesn't have to be about print sales.

So, my advice up there was based on what you said about not really enjoying E-sessions, but I completely agree with Jules. I hardly make any money from engagements but I really enjoy them and I get a TON of business from them. She made some great points!

I can see your point. I enjoy them but I don't use them for advertising. I don't proof online. I proof by projection. I get alot of my referrals from my wedding day slideshows (same day edit), but rarely from engagement. However, I like the idea of adding a guest book.

Candice

+ 1000

im pretty sure you'll lose more than 1200 if you let go of it.

Ok....so.....it seems my point was missed....

I don't want to get rid of them. I just want to make them worth it. I like doing them. I like spending that time with the couples. I just want to be more than nice...I want to be a smart business person.

You know, the whole reason I am asking these questions is because I am trying to take my business seriously. This isn't just a hobby, or something I do for fun. And I was told very firmly by my accountant that I have to get my cost of sales under control. That includes discovering what is in your business that is not making money and what is losing money. Once you find those things, you need to make appropriate changes.

+1

I kind of feel the same. Although I like the idea of delivering with the album. I got that from Gary Fong.

Candice

I tried the Gary Fong approach to albums and it just didn't feel right to me. I'm not much of an upseller, though. I like to know the price of things up front and I'd be really ticked if someone tried to upsell me by thousands of dollars (like Fong does) later. It works great for him and a lot of other people, though, so maybe it'll work great for you, too!

Well the reason I connected with it was 2 things:

1. He made a comment about "giving away your work" in otherwords, give away the proofs and they don't need the album. The images are what make us money, if they already have the emotional enjoyment of them, they don't need any other products. That makes sense to me. What do you think?

2. I am wanting to offer different more high end albums. Which means it is difficult to get them fully in a package. You don't hide the price at all. You tell them that this album ranges from $x-$xx depending on how many pages, and the other album ranges from $xx-$xxx depending on how many pages. The cool part to me is they get the final decision. If the want more pages than is included in the package...great! If they only want the minimum...great! They retain the power to pick the option that is best for them.


So how does that sound? I really don't want to manipulate. I have no problem being up front with pricing. And, I want them to choices.

hi candice,

you are drifting into my world...

1 - no disk = album sale
2 - eSessions = gold
3 - print sale = little income, therefore small incentives

i can elaborate more, but you are getting the gist from lots of people - already good replies.

...which is why you cover the cost of the e session, including time spent shooting and editing it, and designing and purchasing the guest book, into the base price of a wedding. It's a win win.

Pre-bride and pre-groom get the chance to hold your work in their hand. The promise of a beautiful and unique wedding album then becomes even more of a valuable reason why they chose Candice to be their wedding-year photographer.

I totally agree.

Candice, I commend you on getting a hold on your numbers. It's something that most of us don't do in depth. And probably a big reason why many of us won't be in biz in a few years (not talking about anyone in particular, just referencing the high influx and outflux of this business).

But I do think that you may be missing a piece of the puzzle that is not readily available by crunching numbers - emotion.

Our clients buy based on emotion, especially higher-end weddings. They are not number crunching as much as going with who feels right as their photographer (or else they would clearly see that Joe Schmoe's $4 print prices make waaaaayyy more sense than what I hope and assume you are charging).

So, to say that you don't want to do engagement sessions because it's not netting you enough money - I really think that completely misses the point. The engagement session, to me, is part of the wedding coverage. And since you are good at doing the numbers, I'm sure your pricing is sufficient that AS A WHOLE, it nets you a healthy profit.

So, like everyone else has said, consider the engagement session to be part of the wedding, even if it's not on the wedding day. Just like the initial consultation doesn't net you any money and just like the emails and phone calls back and forth to communicate with your client dont' plump up your bank account, the engagement session holds so much more value than just a portrait session and a revenue stream.

Do you have so much demand in the senior market that to do an engagement session takes away from senior sessions? If that's true and your average sale really is $1200, then I guess I don't understand why you wouldn't just focus on seniors.

Just my thoughts - I hope you don't take anything personally. But you did ask.

I still assuming this is for weddings. I actually would like to learn more about album sales for portrait sessions (baby, pets in particular). Do people even buy albums for portrait sessions? I was looking at Finao, but 1) I have no clue how much an album 10 sheets (20 pages) would cost.. Or should I be looking at cheaper books? Sorry to hijack, should i start a new thread?

When it comes to albums, if you show it, they will buy it.


(So don't show "cheaper" books unless you want to be, you know, "cheaper." If you only show one album style, they'll buy that style. If you show a range of three album styles, most people, I've found, will buy the one in the middle of the range.)

I totally agree, sometimes the difference between getting the gig or not may come down to the fact that you offer the Engagement Session included in the package. Don't rush into throwing it out. I offer 2 5x7's to my Engagement Sessions, it's costs next to nothing but the client really appreciates it.

I don't give the photoshoped files, just the SOC's resized to 5x7. The edited images go into the alubm, so they know how much better the files look printed by me. Therefore, they are more likely to get me to print any additional enlargements.

I held off for a while wondering if I should give the files at all, I had so many brides ask for them so I thought I'd meet them half way.

You bet your *ss they do! For example, I had a great sale this week from a Newborn Session. The parents bought one of my Wedding Alubms for themselves, and then 3 Finao 5x7 albums for the parents, along with 3 30"x30" canvases.

The Wedding Album is not included in my Portrait Albums, but they wanted something more high end, not all clients will by middle of the range, some will go all out if put your albums out there for them to see.

I still grapple with this... so no matter how many times the question is asked, I am SO glad you asked Candace.

My fear has been how much to give without committing the "sin" of not upselling.

I've been giving sooc files as well, but have been torn between resizing them or not. Hires or Lores . I think sometimes guilt sneaks in when I try to make money!

Unfortunately, Chelo, this is why the failure rate for photographers who try to make a living at this is so high.

Wow, they bought all that from just their baby shoot? That's great.

I never offer digital proofs. In my opinion it definitely affects your album sales. A very established world-famous photographer taught me that if you give brides physical proofs, after they've seen that image a couple of times and held it in their hands, you lose the magic of that shot. I've found it's far better to give them images online to proof, as they can't actually touch that picture or own it. They have to buy it from you in order to have it. People would rather have a poorly printed 6x4 than a beautifully edited 10x8 in their album. It's just the way most people work.

I have been doing engagement sessions but am stopping them from next season unless brides pay a premium. As you say, you make very little profit from them (after all, this is a business!) after all the effort you put in. All that time could be spent promoting your business and networking with vendors and actually bringing in new business. I always meet with the couple at least once before the day to go through the particulars, and you can generally tell from body language, mannerisms etc how they act together. In my mind it shows a truly great photographer who can get first class images from people on the first shoot, it takes skill to put people at ease straight away. If you really love engagement shoots and think they're an essential part of your business then keep them, but if you're thinking you're making a loss & are unsure, I would say drop them for a season and see if your time can be spent much better.

Never discount!! Big rule of photography retail! Your outgoings are still the same as if you didn't discount, and yet you'll have to try and sell more in order to recoup the profit! If anything, offer them an incentive like one extra image free if they buy 10 or more. You are still pulling in the profit but you're making them think they're getting something free.

If you can buy this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0240808...4526520-5668429

It gives you so much great advice. I have worked with Damien Lovegrove before and he is an excellent businessman as well as photographer.