Yea, but I want free cars too!!!!!



Exactly -- because you are on the wrong side of the fence (i.e. we have wiretaps and don't have nhc)



You drinking the coolaid again?



rofl -- that is wacko -- you give him way too much credit.


And Ryan -- I am not going to get into any long winded debates like you and Troy live for. Yes I am a conservative on most things --- but I tend to exaggerate my positions for the fun of it.

I agree with that. Whew, 1/2 of the stuff I saw after Katrina really frustrated me. There is currently a school "lunch" program in my hometown of Milwaukee where kids over the summer can go in and get fed breakfast, lunch and dinner - while yeah their parents look pretty well off to me - I think it's crazy. I grew up on P&B for main meals and lived just fine. Having my aunt work for SSI I've heard the most asinine stories over the years with people having their palms out. Yet there are the everyday struggling americans who are so hard working - and who are ignored. Companies are cutting back so much - it's impossible to get benefits or get your own plans. We have the right to be able to have access to to be able to afford healthcare. Like my Mom who was willing to pay high dollar for coverage who couldn't get healthcare from private insurance simply because she had high blood pressure - she was denied several times! and she is still too young at 64 for medicare. Let's not keep confusing, "help" "welfare" and "free" with wanting national healthcare. That's a completely different issuse IMHO. That's not what we are fighting for. We are fighting because we feel everyone deserves access to healthcare and our current system is making that impossible.

You are right - that isn't a rational arguement. And it isn't an arguement that I made - so don't make it appear that I did.If you take time to read what I wrote - you will see that I'm all about helping those who NEED it.But the money for national healtcare does not fall out of the sky. It is taken from other people.Again - I agree that we need to do something different - but there are lots of plans that are better than UH.

I do? The man who has evaded the most powerful military and intelligence system in the history of the world for 7 years since he killed 3,000 people on our soil? You think this man is not possessing genius level intelligence and is playing our system against us every step of the way? Who has successfully attacked an American city TWICE? The guy make be insane and evil in his means, but make no mistake, this was ABSOLUTELY his intent. It is this facile underestimation of him that has lead to our failure to capture him. Just google "bin Laden's goals" or "aims" or "expectations". Before 9/11, he wrote extensively on the subject.

The only miscalculation he made was in his favor. He never expected those towers to fall. I am deeply saddened that you are unable to take bin Laden seriously and mistake his evil deeds for stupid ones. Go read his fatwa which was printed in 1996 and you may re-estimate not only his intelligence but his long-view.

Or we could just pretend none of that is true while you roll on the floor. While you roll on the floor, I'll be backing a new president and a fillibuster busting congress as we turn these stupid policies around and make our country free again. God help us if we get McCain in office and get another terrorist attack on our soil. McCain will be rounding up any brown people he can find and putting them in a dark hole never to be seen again.

And I don't expect you to get long-winded with me. Complex arguments are beneath you. I understand.

Oh and your new avatar photo rocks. I have one of me as a 1st grader in a dusty pink denim leisure suit that I am still trying to find.

I actually agree with much (not all) of what you said about Osama bin Laden. I think he has succeeded in getting the Democrats to do exactly as he wanted - to hate America - to get tired of war - to become impatient - etc.

People like Osama bin Laden prey on people who are desperate and who have no hope. Leaving Iraq is not going to do anything to give the people more hope.

Have you ever read The Pentagon's New Map? Just curious.

I have been reading what you are writing and I disagree with you. This foot-dragging that happens while you try and sort out who deserves and who doesn't is time spent where more people are being denied coverage and honestly can't afford the most basic health insurance. Most people in this country live one tragedy away from complete poverty. At a certain point, we are going to have to swallow our pride, summon our most Christian/Jewish/Islamic inclinations toward easing the suffering of people at our own expense and make sure people have their basic health care needs met. With the economy in shambles it is in and gas prices as high as they are (and FOOD prices haven't even hit yet) more and more people are going to find themselves with no insurance or insurance plans which refuse to reasonably cover the most basic treatments. That mixed with so many companies reneging on their employee's pensions as baby boomers come into senior citizenship...there is going to be a tidal wave of support for nationalized health care because the health care insurance market isn't able to correct itself. I think your role as someone who sees need, but can see no solution should possibly switch to helping create Universal Healthcare which is responsibly implemented.Hahahahaa...right. I suppose that's one way of looking at it. That's hyperbolic and untrue. I live in the hotbed of liberal thinking and I've never heard anyone say they hate America.

I didn't suggest we waste time sorting out who needs it and who doesn't. I also didn't say I didn't see a solution. I said that I don't agree that UH is the solution.

You may not have specifically heard anyone say that they "hate" America specifically - but my close friends who are Democrats will admit that they don't "like" our country. That is...until I send them an email explaining why America IS a great country - and then I usually get, "Yeah....you're right about that."

Although they may disagree with me on a million other things!

Unfortunately, there will come a time when our presence there is going to inspire a hatred in most Iraqis and they will abandon hope for anti-Americanism and furthering the aims of Jihad. Then we will really be in trouble. This surge right now is a good thing but we can't keep it up without a draft. It's set to end at the end of the summer. Then what? How are you going to fund it and man it? How are you gong to maintain American support for it?



Nope. I'll look into it though. I'll read around a few moderate reactions on both sides and see if it's worth reading. I appreciate the tip.

Happy 4th of July everyone - I'm banning myself from this thread for the rest of the weekend and heading out to enjoy the day with my husband.

Wow Jill...the Democrats hate America? That comment really surprises me.

So, you were exaggerating a little. I do that sometimes too.

But I still think your depiction of liberal feelings about this country are inaccurate as to favor your worldview and frustrations. Most liberals I know think this is a great country, but they are frustrated with how our freedoms are being abused by conservatives and how American power abroad us being abused. That's a far cry from hating America. Just because I don't like what your political party aspires for in America doesn't mean I hate America. It means I hate YOU! (no...just kidding) It just means there is frustration.

I know it can be very tempting to misrepresent an entire population's views based on your perspective, but I think you may have stopped listening when people disagreed with your worldview and just painted a broad streak of hate over their comments.

I am just asking you to step back for a second and look at what it means to simplify someone's disagreement with you as a hatred. I think you are a smart woman who is capable of a much more complex worldview than this and I challenge you to engage it even when it makes your life more complicated.

One thing to note in that privatized health care thing that has been discussed up here. It's also been shot down by the gov't several times now. While most surgeries do get performed on a regular basis, there are non-life threatening ones that can take a while to have done.

Ryan's quote: "Unfortunately, there will come a time when our presence there is going to inspire a hatred in most Iraqis and they will abandon hope for anti-Americanism and furthering the aims of Jihad. Then we will really be in trouble. This surge right now is a good thing but we can't keep it up without a draft. It's set to end at the end of the summer. Then what? How are you going to fund it and man it? How are you gong to maintain American support for it?"
----------------------------
Well, I guess united we stand, divided we fall. I think that's what Bin Laden wanted, and that's what he got. He doesn't have to destroy us because we will destroy ourselves.

What do you suggest we should have done as a country after 9/11? I don't understand it being okay to give other countries our aid/food/medicine, but not our protection. We were given the 2nd amendment-the right to bear arms-to protect ourselves from the tyranny of the government (THANK GOODNESS that has not been taken away from US!). Other nations have not been given that right. The reason that forces like Jihad have grown is that people are threatened, tortured, and terrified into it-the ones with the bigger guns usually win, remember? America leaves, and Jihad has the upper hand.

Just a curiousity, have you ever spoken with anyone from Iraq? We had an old neighbor who fled Iraq under Saddam's reign. His family is still there. He said he used to be terrified for them-not knowing if they would be "taken away and killed," but now he told us he can sleep well at night knowing that they are safe thanks to "wonderful America."

Now, if you need me, I will be, as Johnny put it, eating my granola bars, and also figuring out what else I need to complete my year's supply of food because I'm getting more and more certain every day that we're going to need it.

Sorry, one more thing to add: We still occupy Germany (since WWII).

And that was exactly his plan, but I think we very much have a better way out of this mess that we were in which is to enact laws which protect our civil liberties while granting the government the right to protect us. Our initial reaction HAD to be for all of us to give up some of our liberties so that the government could create new programs which take into account the loopholes in our current system which allow terrorist to enter the country and plan these sort of atrocities undetected. It's REALLY important to note that the more draconian measures in Patriot Act that allow the government to act with impunity and virtually no oversight MUST be temporary and this was the reported intent when they were created. We have never had a suspension of habeas corpus for this long and it is straining the legitimacy of our government and democracy here and abroad. We can't let the government permanently take away our right to privacy, regardless of the security it may offer. It's the fast road to tyranny and is the first step in creating conditions that bring about a dictatorship.



Our invasion in Iraq took our eye off the ball BIGTIME. We lost Osama because we outsourced our responsibilities there to tribal leaders. We should have used the incredible goodwill pouring in from around the globe to reaffirm our democracy and show what a truly powerful country does when faced with the dangerous threat from extremist terrorists and that is NOT to unilaterally start a war in a second country in the coattails of the first.

We should have asked all Americans to pull their bootstraps and levied appropriate taxes and service cuts to pay for the war in Afghanistan. We should have engaged in aggressive and positive diplomatic outreach to other Muslim countries so as to marginalize Iran and Syria not just with threats of violence but with regional support. We could have a VERY stable democracy flourishing in Afghanistan right now, Osama in jail or dead and a victory in our hands. It’ not like no one was saying this. Those in power in our country made the decision and ignored/demonized dissent. It’s not the motive of the invasion privacy that I am so concerned about because I believe Bush is doing it for the right reasons. My concern is that unscrupulous elements inside our government have and will use these expanded powers to arrest, torture, imprison and crush dissent on a whim. It’s not a huge leap if we were to have another major terorrist attack. We need to inure ourselves against the sort of self-destruction that can come along with fear.



I am in agreement that we should have the right to bear arms, I just wish the people who wrote the amendment hadn't made such a mess out of it. They added that damned part about the militia and it made a mess of it. It is the most contentious of our amendments because of it.

Additionally, it is but ONE of the protections from tyranny that we have written into our Constitution. We also have the right to due process and a speedy trial. We have a right to know what we are being charged with and examine the evidence so we can defend ourselves in a court of law. We have the right to vote and remove from office people who we believe are not acting in the best interests of our country. In the name of expediency, these rights are being stripped away right now. What freedoms are you going to protect with guns if you have allowed the American government to take all of them away? We have recourse and that is to demand that new laws being created to protect our economic and security interests also protect the very freedoms for which our soldiers have fought and died for around the world.


I agree that those are part of the reasons why Jihad exists but there is also poverty, hunger and lack of education. Actually, I hate to bring this up, but there was no Jihad in Iraq when Saddam was in power. There was a civil war between Sunnis and Shiites which he had held in check for generations through brutal torture and oppression. And unfortunately, if we do leave and full-blown civil war does break out, the jihadists are not going to have a haven there. The place is going to be an utter mess and Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds will be too busy killing one another to think about attacking America.

So, we have become in some Iraqi and world eyes the very thing which inspires terrorism by your definition which is harbingers of threats, torture and the wielders of terrifying, ill-used powers. Do I agree? No, but once people get that sort of impression of America in their head, it can be awfully hard to get out and incredibly counterproductive to our efforts there.


I live in New York. I talk to people from every country in the world in a regular basis. Just jump in a cab and talk to the driver and you will find an amazing diversity of views on Middle Eastern affairs. I have talked with several Iraqis who HATED Saddam and had escaped from his regime and are thrilled to be living in the relative peace of America, but they are VERY concerned that the 400,000 Iraqi civilians who have died in the last 5 years of American occupation are more and more being blamed on the American presence there. Not the insurgency. People are angry and afraid because of Abu Ghraib and how some Americans used it so similarly as it had been by Saddam.

I doubt that neighbor of yours would want to go back to Iraq right now. I’ve read interviews of Iraqis who are starting to think back to the authoritarian days of Saddam as their glory days. I understand what our intent there is and I know that the soldiers there are fighting to do their best but the environment is so stacked against them. There are forces at work which are constantly trying to flip the American Effort on it’s back. We can be fighting smarter there and here at home against terrorism. We here at home need to take a step away from our politicians and pundits and look at the facts and perspectives that are going to be vital to any sort of success there.


And Japan and South Korea. But those were much different times when a nation could fall and a regime could be changed. We have drawn the terrorist threat into Iraq and it is going to be nigh impossible to create the kind of endgame that was available to us in those other countries.

Thanks to all who have posted (and there's been a bunch!)

I'm enjoying reading this and gaining new insight into how folks are thinking. Some are very like-minded to me, others not....but the thing I like best is that we are talking about it. I love good political discourse!

I'm going to try my best not to post here for a while, though....I'm way behind on my weddings!

Happy Independence Day weekend!

you have some 'splainin to do......

hahaha

ah, dangit! You made me post!

i seem to have that effect on some........

So I post one lousy picture and you have to post TWO! Why the escalation? Must be a liberal thing.

It was actually three. I was just seeing if it was true that conservatives can't count past one.

Now now! In Outcome based education, there are no wrong answers!

Of course there are. Remember: "with us or against us"...wrong answers are quite clearly defined.

I received my elementary education in the '60's (you know -- when the democraps were in power)

Well, the Special Ed programs WERE a little weak back then. Only so much you can do for conservatives.

So extrapolating a bit... this is proof positive that social programs hurt the grand old U S of A ?

Gee guys, I never thought about it that way before...

shhh ... I am just playing along with his delusional view of the world.

That wasn't aimed at any comment... just a general satirical observation.

And I bet you don't believe in the tooth fairy either, right? Santa Claus? The Easter Bunny? No delusions here ol' boy. *snicker*

Yes, I was exaggerating a little (maybe). But - I was not mispresenting an entire population's views based on my perspective. My beliefs are based on what I actually hear from my friends who are Democrats. They do say that they don't like our country - they just don't say "hate." They do moan and groan about other countries hating us, and they feel that other countries have a right to hate us. That, in my opinion, doesn't make my "hate" remark much of a stretch if any. The people I am referring to are not discussing a dislike of policies - they are discussing how horrible our country is.

Regardless of whether or not you think we should have gone to war - and whether or not you think we should continue to stay there - regardless of whether you are Democrat, Republican (or whatever) we live in the greatest nation the world has ever known.

I just don't get why you guys keep starting these threads.... Like, one every week. This is a photography forum.

Ginger, I think you're awesome. We may have conflicting views, but I respect yours. I just don't like being treated like I'm not as smart as someone else because I don't feel the same way they do on certain issues. I think everyone feels this way. This is why politics is not polite dinner discussion.

You guys are not going to change each other's minds. You're only creating a divisive atmosphere here. You're not educating anyone.

And if anyone came up to me and told me I hated my country, I would pinch his or her nipples as hard as I could.

Politics. Religion. Money. = All bad dinner topics.

I have to echo Shane on this one. Even the "playful" back-and-forth stuff is too much (IMO)

There's still tons of photography-related things to discuss. Hey, some of that photography-related discussion might, like, actually help you make some money or something...

You hate your country!


Sorry, couldn't resist.....a little loopy since I've only had a few hours of sleep and working on my taxes (of all things! ick)

Thanks, I think you're awesome too. I know that some people won't learn anything from this kind of thread, but I am. Will I change who I vote for? Possibly not, but I am learning about where others who don't agree with me are coming from. Something I value.....whether others do or not.

<-- so you know we're all good!

Since OSP's inception there have been non-photography topics on here. It is just part of the OSP culture.


But I must agree, right or wrong, that there is a growing democratic stereotype is that they hate this country.

Jill,


Your other Democratic friends don't say "hate" because they don't hate. They are angry at what the Republican leadership has done to their country and how it has demonized Democrats by repeating lies like, "Democrats hate America." So, let's be clear, your Democratic friends don't hate America and probably agree when you say that this is the greatest country in the history of the world. That said, our country is not beyond reproach, beyond criticism and is CERTAINLY a work in progress and has been since the beginning. That's what democracy is about.

I'll stir up the hornet's nest in your head and see if you can parse this: Do I think it is reasonable that some other countries hate us? Hell yes! We have done awful things to some citizens of other countries. Does that lead me to hate my own country? Uh...no. It makes me want to change my country's course and make sure she is a better steward for democracy around the world. See...where I come from our right to criticize our government is the the ONLY thing that makes America great.

And just to drop another dime in the jukebox, your perception of how people feel doesn't change their actual feelings. When someone says they are frustrated and does like how their country is behaving, that doesn't change to hate just because it's convenient for you. Why don't you ask those friends if they flat out hate America and that you indicated on this forum that you said that. I think you will have a few Democratic friends who might be a bit miffed that you abused and misrepresented their options like that.




Shane, I disagree fundmamentally. I think these forums are extremely valuable. Quite a few people have PMd me thanking me for a tidbit of knowledge here and there. Just last week, Dawn repeated something about Michele Obama shouting racial slurs on a recording which doesn't exist. I may not have changed her mind about Obama, but her information is a little better today. AND she was passing the correction along to her family. That's no small beans.

The divisive atmosphere already exists. Just because we don't talk about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I think people can have a great debate and remain friends. One of my good friends' husband is a writer for a major conservative news outlet and we spend tons of time debating issues. I got into one of the most interesting conversations of my life with a government contracter for the Pentagon on a plane once and we disagreed about everything. I wish you didn't feel so uncomfortable about these conversations, but since other people are enjoying it and seem to be getting something from it, why not let it happen?



Damon, some of us think making money is all good, but we value the opinions and thoughts of other people here too. We are all swimming in the same pool and are of like-minds on many issues. It's REALLY interesting to see how people with in some ways similar lives have contrasting views.



Bravo! I totally agree and it's important as we move forward that when we hear an opposing party's leader say something that we *GASP* Agree with?!!!! We can support the policy even if we support the man.



It is a growing stereotype and it's generally held in the minds of Conservatives. Again, let's be clear: the VAST majority of Democrats do NOT hate America. If they hate anything, it's what conservatives have done with our government. To conflate the two is (sorry Jill) irresponsible and inaccurate. I know it makes you feel better to see Democrats as peeing on the graves of dead soldiers, flying the flag upside-down, worshiping Satan and hating your children, but just because you say/want it to be so doesn't make it so. Your leap between the two ideas is inaccurate and ill-rationalized. It would be like me saying a conservative hated America because it currently allows abortion. It just doesn't stand up.

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Wow. That's an incredible first line. When's the last time anyone read the entire thing with Amendments? It's pretty amazing.

Ryan makes great points, as always. As a Democrat, I don't hate America; heck, I work for America, so it would be rather hypocritical of me to hate the very thing I work for.

Democrats want to see a better America, where people are dedicated to fixing things here at home and creating more equality and opportunities for all, rather than getting involved in foreign messes (which, conveniently keep people's minds off the issues in front of them). Being patriotic means questioning the political process and demanding more from our leaders, not blindly jumping on the bandwagon like many Americans have done.

That's because people keep repeating what the talking heads are saying... like parrots. I feel like Sean Hannity should get a dime every time someone says that America is the greatest country in the history of the world. And Ann Coulter salivates when someone finds a new and interesting way to use the term "liberal" in a negative way.

Politics is no longer about ideas. It's a PR campaign on either side. It's all posturing and it's all fake. It's about tactics and semantics. When I was a reporter, it was fun to try to decipher. Now, it just makes me sick because people eat everything up without thinking... on both sides.

If you engage in critical thought, you hate your country. You're either with us, or against us. Right? There's no in between. This is why I hate seeing these threads. Every time someone says something ridiculous, I lose a little respect for them.

People are too lazy to come up with their own opinions. We have become a choir waiting to be preached to.

Ryan - just as I don't really have the right to say that Democrats hate America - you don't have the right to tell me what my friends think. You don't know them, and you certainly can't speak for them. They don't agree that America is the greatest country in the world - some do when I remind them why it is.

You are assuming that my friends said they are frustrated but like their country and that is not the case. You are the one making up the story here as you would like it to play out.

I hate to disappoint you, but many of my friends do really dislike our country b/c of all the BS they are fed by the media. They have no idea how benevolent the U.S. is nor do they have any idea of the goodwill efforts that take place.

As much as I enjoy reading this thread - I have to get some work done before going out of this amazing country - so please try to avoid making up things I didn't say. Just kidding....sort of.

... and Sean Hannity gets another dime.

Shane - come on! What you are saying is ridiculous. Just because people feel the same about something doesn't mean they are like parrots.

Would you really like to compare the number of people who say they are voting for a candidate because "they are ready for a change?"

I really don't understand why people read these threads if they have a problem with it. There are plenty of posts on OSP that have nothing to do with photography. I simply don't read a post if I don't want to.

It doesn't have to be divisive. I have quite a few close friends who are Democrats. Although we disagree on most issues, we have no problem being great friends. If you only have respect for and are friends with people who think the same as you - then you are probably missing out on great friendships. \

FYI - I don't even listen to Hannity. You would be more likely to hear me quoting Neal Boortz.

In large part you are right, but I think it's mostly because the whole political scene is too big. (This is my plug for smaller government.) Yes, people are lazy, but also it's just too hard - sometimes impossible- to get the story for yourself. I can't reasonably go out and meet Obama, sit and talk to him a while about my concerns. I can't call up McCain and ask him to lunch to discuss America's fubar tax system. It's just not possible. So what are we left with? Listening to pundits (who are supposed to know and be unbiased) give us things to think about.

I gotta know, did I make you smile with the whole nipple/ hate country thing??? Did I? Huh? Hope you have a good day, I gotta go work.

Apparently you can't be patriotic without being jingoistic.

It's funny, here in the US, I connect all the flag waving with the right wing and the whole "get the terrorists" mentality. but when I was in Portugal, I saw flags everywhere in support of the national team playing in the european tournament, it just didn't strike me the same way as the flag waving I see here at home. people were just proud of their country, but it didn't feel condescending or that they felt they were the best country in the world.

the US isn't the best in the world. it has great elements, but there really is no "best" country, just like there is no "best" athlete, song, movie, etc. it's all subjective and depends on people's life experiences.

Shane, you and I totally agree on this point.
And it is the primary reason our nation is in trouble.


Btw - this is totally off topic - but does anyone else think of THIS (no rick roll) when they see Ryan's avitar?

Awwwww. Comon' Shane. Just admit that you like seeing Ryan clean my clock on these threads!



As for what these threads do is show the hypocrisy on both sides of the issues, and cause many folks to THINK and not just emote on what the talking heads say.

While this is a photography forum, you'll notice that this thread is in the Who We Are:-) >> Fun Stuff section. Sounds like we could even discuss poltergeists or dogs or sitting on the pot in here.

Jill, again...I am not hearing you quoting any of your friends actually say they hate America. Not agreeing that America is the greatest country in the world does not "hate" make. So, what I am asking you to do is before you repeat that particular line, why don't you check in with them. I think they will be offended that you have exploded their dissatisfaction with what the leaders you elected have done in the last 8 years of this government into "hatred." I don't think I put any words into your mouth. I just repeated what you have said. I think it's hurtful to our democracy when you choose to characterize someone's disagreement with your viewpoint as hating America. It's not honest. As much as you would like their lack of fervor for the lack of fervor or even disgust with this Republican administration's actions to be unpatriotic or hateful toward America it just doesn't slice the bread. So, I am not going to stop challenging on you because you are in this case, choosing to be a lazy voter and your maintained and protected ignorance on this matter stifles honest discussion and debate.




I have lived all over this country and I have NOT ONCE heard ANYONE say they hated America, liberal, communist, radical, evangelist, conservative, republican, alien...whatever. What you are saying simply doesn't add up.


I think they don't value or view American action the same way you do. Perhaps they are skeptical about some expansions of imperial power outside the U.S. Perhaps they are concerned about the unchecked expansion of presidential power. Perhaps that are just frustrated because some people are boiling their frustrations with our government down to being unpatriotic and hating America and then seem less than inclined to hear the content of their actual arguments.

I don't know if you actually have any Democratic friends. (oooooh...fight fight fight!) Seriously Jill...I am full-on double-dog daring you to ask your Democratic friends this: "Do you hate America? Why or why not?"

So, no, I am not letting you off the hook.

How about these options instead:

Jill could say, "I just feel like they hate America." or "Their actions imply to me that they hate America." or "They don't seem to understand America in the way that I do and value it for the same reasons as me so I am sorely tempted to say they hate America because then I don't have to take their concerns seriously and possibly allow criticism of America, regardless of how wrongheaded the actions of our government and people have been."

Everyone should just watch Fox news and the country would be a better place!