Since I'm having trouble with focusing on group formals with my 24-70mm L, I'm thinking about switching to a prime for these, but I didn't realize the 24mm 1.4L was another $1400.00

Is there a less expensive alternative, that will give me sharp images?

What about the 24mm 2.8 (not L).
Will this give sharp images at 24mm?

you have no choice but to get sharp images at 24.

its an L series lens, its a fantastic lens i love it. but.........

primes are, in themselves, fantastic, you dont have to have an L to get good quality. but the 1.4 is great for receptions.

buy an used one at KEH.

How are you having problems focusing? What apertures are you shooting at?
You could look at the 28:1.8 if 28 is wide enough.

Jonathan

Thanks Tami. I can't find it used though. Thanks Jonathan. I had a whole post on formals that explains how my formals are always soft or blurry with the 24-70mm L.I'll have a look at the 28mm 1.8.ThanksJen

Don't you think that's a little wide for formals? How about the 50mm 1.4?

keep checking. they update their stock constantly.

I'm genuinely curious.... how the heck do you do a medium/large group formal with a 50mm? Even on a FF body that's pushing it.... I could see a 35 on a ff body maybe being able to cover it... I'd say that a 28 would be fine. I've got the 35 f/2 canon and while not being an L it is still quite sharp and a heck of a lens. I'm still saving up for the 35 1.4 (renting for now) but the 35 f/2 does do a great job which would leave me to believe that the 24 2.8 would work great as well.

What about the 17-40L? It's only f/4, but you don't want to stop up much more than that for formals, do you? Also, you'll have great range on the wide end and it's a lot less than the 24L.

I'm actually trying to get away from the zoom lens and just get a prime. I have a 24-70L right now, but it's just not sharp enough.

+1, for formals I have a 50 1.4 on one of my 5D's, and the 24 1.4 on the other. I only jump over to the 24 for the really big shots. That lens, though, is my favorite lens EVER. Soooo wonderful.

posted in your other thread...
it's WAY cheaper (and you'll get better results) by adding off camera flash, IMHO.


formals are shot at a smaller aperture to get the DOF you need. a fast prime is not the answer, especially when fast means a wide aperture. your DOF will be like 1/2 inch - ok, that's an exaggeration, but if you are following me, you'll get my point.

i wish i could show this in person. you will never shoot formals without that flash high up on a lightstand right next to you again. i swear. straight out of the camera, perfect exposure and razor sharp... i'd guarantee it with a kit lens.

I'll second Robin's answer. I tried this a few years ago and it's helped immensely. Big, 60" umbrella, 12' lightstand, AB800 on full, custom white balance. I get f/8 or f/9 at ISO 400 and 1/30 shutter speed to pick up some ambient. If the church is really dark, you won't get much ambient light, but they still look fantastic.

About the 24 -- if the problem is the focus, and f/2.8 (on your zoom) is too dark for your camera to focus accurately, an f/2.8 prime won't help much. It's still letting in the same amount of light for your camera to focus on.

I'm actually not looking for fast glass, just sharp glass.

As I mentioned in my other post, I do shoot off camera flash with a tripod and umbrella.
I swear. My blurry results are not due to no flash or on camera flash.

I will try upping the output, but even in the formal shot I posted, I was shooting at 5.6 and it's not a DOF issue either, because everyone is blurry.

I have both the 24-70L and the 24 f/2.8--the latter I don't use much since getting the zoom, but it is a good lens and I have had great results with the sharpness. It feels substantial, not just a cheapie little lens. That said, are you shooting on 5D or something else (FF or not)? On the 5D, the 24mm is good for full body formals. You might also need a 50 for closer shots. I carry the 50mm Macro for it's macro capabilities, but I have also used it before as a regular 50mm lens if you don't want to spring for the L series.

Am I the only one that thinks maybe your autofocus needs to be dialed in? Not sure how that works on a Canon, but it sounds like you are consistently getting out-of-focus images, which sounds like maybe there's an actual focus issue - not a sharpness issue.

Just my thought

Jason

I don't think she is having focus issues, I think the 24-70 lens is just a very soft lens when shooting on the wide end no matter what aperture you use. I have the same problem where it's not a focus issue because nothing is in focus wide open, it's all very soft. I'm gonna have to hit you up for some advice with the off camera flash Robin, cuz I just got an st-e2 to start using off camera flash

I also don't think it's a focusing issue, because I often get crisp detail shots. (I'm usually shooting at 70mm for these though)

I've been experimenting with the lens, and focusing three ways: (no flash, shallow DOF just to see if the centre with remain sharp, and where the fall off goes)

Centre focus point on the centre of the images. (I anticipate that this could only work well with a large DOF)
Centre focus point on the face, then recompose. Works better horizontally than vertically.
Outside focal point on the face. Works sometimes but sometimes it doesn't read the image as well and wont focus at all.

So far, when shooting people, I'm still getting soft images with every type of focus on all the people, including the ones I'm focusing on..

I did some test shots, and don't seem to be getting back focusing issues.

Do you think I should be sending the lens to Canon to be recalibrated or is this just to be expected with this lens?

+1

JAC, you might just need to have your lens examined by Canon. There's no reason for it to be unacceptably soft at any point in its range.

Also, what camera body are you using? When discussing focal lengths it's important to know what crop factor you're dealing with. One man's 50mm is another man's 80mm, if you catch my drift Actually, the only thing I ever use my 24-70 for during a wedding is the family formal portraits. Besides that it sits in the camera bag all day. I shoot a 1D Mark 3 (1.3x crop factor) so it's actually about a 30-90. I try to keep the effective focal length to between 35mm and 50mm to avoid wide angle and perspective distortion. Aperture is at least f/5.6 (8.0 preferably). In a dark church, it's on a tripod with the shutter dragged down to 1/4" or so to suck up the ambient light in the background, with an umbrella on a Lumedyne light set 1 or 1 1/2 stops over the background for fill in the eyes and color.

I use a rotating bracket on the tripod so I can quickly switch between landscape and portrait orientations, and I like the zoom so I can create 3 different crops of each orientation (one for full frame wide, one for 5x7 and 8x10 cropping, and one close-up). Since I can't change the cropping with a prime without moving the tripod, I've got to use a zoom so I can finish expediently.

I don't think getting a wide prime is the best answer...you shouldn't have any problem with the 24-70, and if you are, it's either a defective lens or some other technical issue.

Basically, there are 3 things that can cause "softness" in an image.

1) Bad/cheap glass
2) Camera shake (are you using a tripod? If not are you able to follow the 1/focal length rule?)
3) Poor or broken focusing

Can you post some example images so we can see which one of these three is causing your problem?

Warm Regards,

Matt

+2 - the 50/1.4 is what I use for formals almost every time! Works wonderfully! I DO, however, think you need to send your 24-70 in to Canon for a little tweaking.

I've also been considering the 35/1.4. Anyone heard anything about this?

I use this lens frequently, especially for dance shots (I prefer wider angles for these so the subjects can be distortedly larger in the frame). It's a beautiful lens.

Thanks Matt:

Yep, I posted an example in the other thread, but here's another (I made this one bigger so that it might be more obvious)





And here is the camera's info on it:


Camera Model Name
Canon EOS 20D
Firmware
Firmware 2.0.3
Shooting Date/Time
6/28/2008 17:19:56
Tv(Shutter Speed)
1/160Sec.
Av(Aperture Value)
F6.3
Metering Modes
Evaluative metering
Exposure Compensation
-1/3
ISO Speed
100
Lens
24-70mm
Focal Length
24.0 mm
Image size
3504 x 2336
Image Quality
RAW
Flash
On
White Balance
Cloudy
AF mode
AI focus AF
Picture Style
-
Parameters
Tone Curve : -
Sharpness level : -
Pattern Sharpness : -
Contrast : 2
Sharpness : 0
Color saturation : 1
Color tone : 0
Highlight tone priority : -
Color matrix
-
Color Space
sRGB

i noticed AI focus (servo?) in your exif; that could be the issue. my limited experience with ai servo hasn't been good for static subjects for some reason, but that may just be my misuse of it. one shot is great cuz you know when you've got the focus locked in. just my 2 cents

....Your focal plane is tilted?! Send to canon for recalibration. The grass by their feet and the bottom of the dress. Do you have an uncropped/edited version?

This is uncropped and unedited. Do you mean where I haven't cropped the feet out? Yep, got one of those. It's tilted though. Apparently, I have a crooked head!


BTW...this image looks 10x blurrier on my browser and in PS than on the internet here.



Here is another horizontal one:

Look right by their feet. See how there's acceptable detail there (in the grass). my bet is that you focal plane looks like \| in relation to the photo instead of ||. Try a landscape at 24 with the lens set to hyperfocal. If everything looks good then it's a lens calibration issue somewhere causing the focal plane to be a bit "funky".

I do know for sure that canon could diagnose this issue wayyy faster than we could. Definitely send it out.

I would send my lens back in. Looks like the glass isn't performing as it should. The 24-70 can easily turn out sharper images than this so I don't think getting a prime is the right answer for this one. On a side note, I still feel like Magic Sharp could pull that back to an acceptable sharpness. But send your lens back in.

Thanks so much for helping me out. I will send it to Canon.I find with sharpening, I can make it acceptable, so long as they don't want to blow it up big.Thanks so much for helping me out. I really didn't know if the lens just had these limitations, or if it should preform better.

Not a problem at all! I'm sure canon will fix it up great for ya!

I don't know, Bryce, I don't see grass in focus by the feet...it all looks out of focus to me.

I am curious about the AI Servo focus mode. That shouldn't be used for subjects that are standing still. It's not as accurate as the single shot focus mode, and if you try to focus and recompose with it, it's going to start seeking again as soon as you move the focal point off the subjects. I'm not sure if that's what causing this, but I would do another test with the standard focusing mode instead, just to make sure.

Failing that, send it to Canon. That's not an acceptable sharpness for this lens.

Ok...let me try that first. Thanks Matt.

If focus is locked, the focus mode doesn't matter.

On my 1D3 here I have two focusing modes: AI Servo and One Shot. If I put it on One Shot, put the red box focal point over my subject and halfway depress the button, it locks focus on that object. After that, I can, while continuing to half-depress the shutter button, recompose my image (that is, move the red focal point box away from the subject) and my focus will stay locked.

However, if I'm in AI Servo mode and I do the same thing, the focusing system simply tracks whatever happens to be under the red focal point box. So if I half-depress the button, pre-focusing on my subject, but then recompose the image, the focusing system will start trying to focus on whatever is under the box now.

The reason for this is because the purpose of the AI Servo mode is to anticipate the correct focusing distance of a subject moving towards or away from the camera. So if a runner is moving towards you, and you put (and keep) the focusing box over the runner and depress the shutter button, the focusing system will continuously track the runner's motion, adjusting the focusing distance until you fully depress the shutter button.

Try it for yourself

Cheers,

Matt

AI Servo is not the problem...I am in this mode all the time and LOVE it!!! Wouldn't change it at ALL! I seriously got the same result when I rented the 24-70mm back when I was trying out different types of lenses. YUCK! I was like "this is an L lens???" Now I am all prime except for the 70-200mmIS and will never go back! For formals I switch between my 50 1.4 and 24 1.4. I like the 50 for almost all of my shots but go to the 24 for larger groups---Love both of these lenses!!! I think you should seriously go for the primes. Once you do I don't think you could ever go back...just my 2cents

Hey Matt,

She uses back button focus, so that's not the issue.

This one gives me the creeps, very tough decision..............................
But if photography, and photography alone is what you do for a living I believe that you should go for the best........................................................

It works in the same way. If you depress the star button to focus, and then recompose and press the shutter button to shoot, it'll refocus before firing.

Edit: Whoops, AI Focus mode, not AI Servo mode. You're right.

However, one should still use One Shot for static subjects

That is something we can agree on.

Just to be clear for everyone reading this thread: If you set your custom function to back button only focus, then you can use AI Servo focusing and not worry about it reactivating when you depress the shutter button. I shoot this way 90% of the time ( I do switch to One Shot for formals because the consistency is better with static subjects).

Make sense?

me too.

Ok...well I'm still confused about why my formals are always blurry. Flash output? Zoom lens? focusing mode? misaligned focal plane? Urgh.

Anyway, I have a wedding on Friday. I'm going to use my 24-70 set to "one shot", on a tripod and try to up my flash output without darkening the background.
I'm also going to use my second photographers prime 50 1.8 as a back up, and then I'm going to compare the images.

I will let you guys know how it all turns out.

i can guaranatee you it is not going to help with a tripod

I'm sure you're right Tami. I'm just so frustrated, that I want to try everything possible to get this straightened out.
And maybe, I'll fix my crooked head problem in the mean time!

I'm so confused... why put yourself through all this pain and stress? You're not officially qualified (nor are any of us here) to diagnose disassemble or repair a camera lens. We can call it how we see it (I stand by your focal plane being angled) but I still don't see why sending it to canon where they have the proper expertise and equipment to diagnose and repair this issue quickly and effectively is so objectionable.

Well, I guess I just want to be sure that it isn't human error. I don't want to send it in, and have them tell me that it's perfectly fine. (Too much pride, I guess)

Plus I have a wedding in 2 days, so I'll be needing it until then. If I have the same problems, yet again, I will definitely take it in on Monday.

Heh, I guess my perspective is also different. I've been burned by a defective lens before so anytime things have problems that I can't diagnose as human error after a few tests I send it right in to get looked at and beg/borrow/rent something to cover my needs.

I have a similar problem with my 24-70L. I shoot wide open most of the time (w. the back focus button) and a lot of my shots are soft. This is my first L lens and I normally use the 50 1.4 or 85 1.8 and the results are much sharper. I know it's not really a fair to compare it with a prime but that's what I'm used to.

So today I called up Canon and I spoke to a helpful guy who said that the softness shooting wide open is normal and suggested that I send him a few unedited images so they could take a look and let me know if the softness was normal or something that needed recalibration. I would suggest you give Canon a call and send them the shots to evaluate. They're the experts and will probably be able to tell you if there is really an issue.

- Dennis

Great idea. Thank you Dennis.
Who did you speak with at Canon? Was it customer service, or technical support, or repairs?
Thanks again.

I think you made the same mistake I did...confusing AI Servo and AI Focus. They're two different things, and with back (star) button focusing, the camera WILL refocus before firing on AI Servo, but WILL NOT on AI Focus.

At least that's the case as tested on a 30D and a 1D mark 3. Well, sort of on the 1D3, as it does not have an AI Focus mode, only AI Servo.

Matt,

AI Servo will focus with the * button but not with the shutter button that is conventionally used. I've used it, I know it. I can do this on any canon from an XT to the 1D3. Perhaps you haven't set your button correctly for it, but i assure you that it works.

Hmmm...perhaps, but I don't know why it's doing it, then. I've got a 30D and a 1D3 sitting right next to me, and they both behave this way. In AI Servo mode, both the shutter button and the star button cause the focus to seek. Which makes sense to me, seeing how the idea of AI Servo mode is to continue to adjust the focusing system until just before snapping the image to compensate for motion by the subject. Otherwise I'd have to hold down the star button to continue to focus while snapping the picture, and that seems cumbersome.

Maybe it's some kind of difference in firmware? Hand on the Bible I just tested it, and, yeah...it seeks before firing even when the star button is not being held...