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Bellissima
did you ever notice that you RARELY if ever find deals on the BEST stuff?

doesn't that make you think?


...any current mac computer, ipod or iphone
...service on a mercedes
...tommy bahama
...diamonds
...latest edition books (and first edition classics)
...lancome cosmetics
...frederick fekkai hair cuts
...the penthouse suite

"i'm not running any specials now, but thanks for asking"
smile.gif

i'm listening to my marketing manager explain to a sales person why they can NOT give a discount to a customer. i just want to yell across the hall..."just tell them we aren't running any specials now, but thanks for asking!" ...woulda saved him like 20 minutes.
Melody
QUOTE(Bellissima @ June 24 2008, 02:39 PM) *
did you ever notice that you RARELY if ever find deals on the BEST stuff?

doesn't that make you think?

...any current mac computer, ipod or iphone


Right bfore I read this post - I got an email from Mac offering a free ipod touch with the purchase of a Mac wink.gif


"Students, take note: Buy a qualifying Mac today and get a free iPod touch or iPod nano after rebate. And you’ll save even more with your education discount. Now that’s worth remembering."
Bellissima
(sigh)
the real tami
QUOTE(Bellissima @ June 24 2008, 07:54 PM) *
(sigh)



yah but i was at the bobbi brown makeup counter and i asked if there was any gift with purchase and the girl just looked at me blink.gif and said, snottily, no, bobbi doesnt give anything away..... (beyotch.)
Bellissima
my sigh is a happy one...

you've proved my point
smile.gif
there are NO discounts, you do, on the other hand receive more product.
wink.gif
this is exactly what i'm saying.


discuss...
c*r*y*s*t*a*l
QUOTE(Bellissima @ June 24 2008, 11:39 AM) *
did you ever notice that you RARELY if ever find deals on the BEST stuff?

doesn't that make you think?

...any current mac computer, ipod or iphone
...service on a mercedes
...tommy bahama
...diamonds
...latest edition books (and first edition classics)
...lancome cosmetics
...frederick fekkai hair cuts
...the penthouse suite

"i'm not running any specials now, but thanks for asking"
smile.gif

i'm listening to my marketing manager explain to a sales person why they can NOT give a discount to a customer. i just want to yell across the hall..."just tell them we aren't running any specials now, but thanks for asking!" ...woulda saved him like 20 minutes.


Doesn't lancome do the free gift bag thing once a year like clinique? And I think that the books do get put on specials. I know that diamonds are often on sale. smile.gif But I totally get your point!

Grace and Peace,

Crystal
Damon
QUOTE(Bellissima @ June 24 2008, 02:39 PM) *
did you ever notice that you RARELY if ever find deals on the BEST stuff?


I'm often surprised to see so much hand-wringing over potential clients wanting to wheel-and-deal. The "no deals" advice is generally helpful to certain markets but I don't think it necessarily applies to all things.

What's wrong with being flexible or building a custom package that satisfies the deal-savvy client and the professional at the same time?

Melody had a great point about the Macs; along with seasonal specials, generally you can find a current refurbished model for a great price right in the Apple Store website.

Not to blow up your spot completely, but some of the examples you gave may not be the best for your argument. Tommy Bahama has outlet stores. Diamonds can be had at much more competitive prices thanks to internet dealers (or if you know someone). Hotel suites can easily be negotiated for much lower than the rack rate -- depending on the season or your preferred status.

Don't forget there is a cultural aspect to it as well. I think a lot of Americans are conditioned to feel ashamed to question price or push for a deal, and as sellers they are offended when someone else does. In many cultures the listed price is just a jumping off point for heavy negotiations.

Given the economic conditions I think it's imprudent to dismiss offhand a client's request for a little consideration regardless of whether you consider yourself the best or not. Everything is negotiable -- even items in big box stores and luxury retailers.

QUOTE
"Even luxury retailers are willing to do what it takes to compete. A sales manager at Montmartre, a high-end clothier in New York City, said that even though it's not written in the store policy, they will match lower prices from other retailers on request and also give a 10% discount to their "VIP" customers, which include those that shop at the store regularly or have reached a certain spending threshold. Not a bad deal for a $400 dress or pair of $190 designer jeans."
Bellissima
ahhhhh...

i'm not saying that you can't find good deals, or outlets, or that you shouldn't be flexible.

i am saying learn from the BEST.

they don't DISCOUNT, they BONUS. they give you more for the same price, not the same for a lower price. sure, on occasion, but by and large people are happy to get more, if they like what you are selling.
smile.gif

for example, i recently met with a couple to go over their album. i don't do any discounts on albums, ever. i do, however, provide bonus pages.

do you see the difference?

Damon
Some more links:

NY Times: For Champions of Haggling, No Price Tag Is Sacred

QUOTE
“I’m not just asking for a discount,” he said. “I’m spending more with you than someone else, and I should be treated better or differently.”


NY Times:
Even at Megastores, Hagglers Find No Price Is Set in Stone

QUOTE
"The sluggish economy is punctuating a cultural shift enabled by wired consumers accustomed to comparing prices and bargaining online, said Nancy F. Koehn, a retail historian at the Harvard Business School."

While tough times give people more incentive to change their behavior, it is the wealth of information about products made available on the Internet that gives consumers the know-how to try it. People now can quickly amass information on product availability and pricing, helping them develop strategies to get the best deal.
Bellissima
QUOTE(Damon @ June 24 2008, 03:06 PM) *
I'm often surprised to see so much hand-wringing over potential clients wanting to wheel-and-deal. The "no deals" advice is generally helpful to certain markets but I don't think it necessarily applies to all things.



Given the economic conditions I think it's imprudent to dismiss offhand a client's request for a little consideration regardless of whether you consider yourself the best or not. Everything is negotiable -- even items in big box stores and luxury retailers.



agreed.

i'm saying provide more... better... for the same price, not the same for a lower price.
this is how the best and brightest compensate for a 'sluggish economy'.
Damon
QUOTE(Bellissima @ June 24 2008, 03:13 PM) *
i'm not saying that you can't find good deals, or outlets, or that you shouldn't be flexible.

i am saying learn from the BEST.

Maybe we're getting our lines crossed but you didn't say anything about the "bonus" strategy in the original post. What you said was:

QUOTE(Bellissima @ June 24 2008, 02:39 PM) *
did you ever notice that you RARELY if ever find deals on the BEST stuff?

"i'm not running any specials now, but thanks for asking"
smile.gif



QUOTE
do you see the difference?

I think that the economic situation and positioning of an individual business heavily influences whether they can spurn the deal-seekers and only "bonus".

How many photographers are the "best" in their area?

Just my opinion but I think that there are a lot more factors that should go into the decision to effectively say no to anyone seeking a deal and only offering "upgrades". If photography is the only thing putting food on the table for a business-owner, being more recession-friendly is smart. In almost every industry even the high-end is getting pinched right now. On the other hand the warehouse clubs are raking it in...
NicoleW
QUOTE(Bellissima @ June 24 2008, 02:13 PM) *
ahhhhh...

i'm not saying that you can't find good deals, or outlets, or that you shouldn't be flexible.

i am saying learn from the BEST.

they don't DISCOUNT, they BONUS. they give you more for the same price, not the same for a lower price. sure, on occasion, but by and large people are happy to get more, if they like what you are selling.
smile.gif

for example, i recently met with a couple to go over their album. i don't do any discounts on albums, ever. i do, however, provide bonus pages.

do you see the difference?


"Captain, I've just had an apostrophe."
"Smee, don't you mean an ephiphany."
laughing.gif
Makes sense to me. I am going to completely take this to heart. Thanks! biggrin.gif
SarahBrownDowntown
QUOTE(Melody @ June 24 2008, 02:44 PM) *
"Students, take note: Buy a qualifying Mac today and get a free iPod touch or iPod nano after rebate. And you'll save even more with your education discount. Now that's worth remembering."


Sorry if this is beating a dead horse, but they do discount the price for students IN ADDITION to offering an iPod.
K.C.
I got your point from the beginning Robin...and a good one it was. thumbsup.gif
Bellissima
QUOTE(Damon @ June 24 2008, 03:25 PM) *
Maybe we're getting our lines crossed but you didn't say anything about the "bonus" strategy in the original post.
i didn't - melody mentioned that. which reinforced that some things - namely macs - don't go on sale.

i was hoping to stir a discussion.

and remind people that there is more than one way to increase their perceived value.

of course, lowering prices is always an option. i'm running a sale right now on sessions that i've never done before. they are pricey because i want to limit them. to generate interest, i put them 'on sale'. to close the deal, i can offer a bonus.

all i'm saying is that before you lower your price, which takes money out of your pocket, think about offering additional items that the client wants.

i regularly will print hundreds of dollars of prints at no charge for a client when they order their album. it's my way of thanking them for a very large order. i do include an invoice so that they know what the value of the prints are. sometimes a client needs to cut down a book by a few pages. i will print their favorite print from the cut pages and mat and frame it for them. it makes them happy, i keep the sale and it costs little for the rave.

QUOTE(SarahBrownDowntown @ June 24 2008, 03:35 PM) *
Sorry if this is beating a dead horse, but they do discount the price for students IN ADDITION to offering an iPod.


think BIGGER!the discount to a student, so that when they graduate, they keep a loyal client who will be able to afford more and buy at regular price.

the incentive isn't created by giving a BIGGER student discount, it's created by giving a bonus. this keeps money going to the bottom line.

this is kind of a marketing lesson in disguise.

BTW - i did get a discount of 3% off my mac for my biz - if it's a BIZ purchase you will receive the discount, too. you will need the appropriate tax numbers.
Damon
QUOTE(Bellissima @ June 24 2008, 03:41 PM) *
all i'm saying is that before you lower your price, which takes money out of your pocket, think about offering additional items that the client wants.

I understand your point and I agree that slashing prices first is a bad move. It reeks of desperation...

...at the same time the prospect of a little less money in your pocket versus just lint in your pocket is a reality that many photographers are facing at the moment.
Bellissima
if you are willing to lower your price, then also remove your cost of goods, subsitute less expensive options.

i've noticed a LARGE number of people who include really expensive stuff in their packages at a 'too low' price. lowering the cost without lowering your expenses is how you lose your biz.

while i do understand that the account of the economy has a lot of people nervous, but there are still a lot of people making money, and spending money. these people do not want to work with someone who desperately lowers a price. i was in florida to photograph an esession last weekend. i spent a lot of money, i saw people spending a lot of money. if you are doing what you've always done, and it's not working, it's time to change.
smile.gif
Damon
QUOTE(Bellissima @ June 24 2008, 04:06 PM) *
i was in florida to photograph an esession last weekend. i spent a lot of money, i saw people spending a lot of money.

People are spending money, no doubt, but now that the stigma attached to wheeling-and-dealing is going away I think that there's a lot of middle ground between "sorry, no deals" and being "someone who desperately lowers a price".

For customers considering higher end offerings there is a lot more flexibility. That's working, so no need to change!
Vidish
Robin your inbox is full

biggrin.gif
Damon
QUOTE(Vidish @ June 24 2008, 04:35 PM) *
Robin your inbox is full

biggrin.gif

Oooh! So sneaky, Ms. Vidish!
Lisa O'Connor
Hey Robin!
I do see your point but when I bought my Mac through MacMall I got it on sale during the Christmas season plus guess what I got in my e-mail today........an extended 4 Day Apple Sale. smile.gif

http://www.macmall.com
(not a RickRoll)

I copy and pasted from my e-mail below:

4 Day Apple Sale!
SAVE up to 30% on Apple Computers




Apple Apple
13.3" MacBook Intel Core 2 Duo 2.1GHz, 1GB, 120GB, Combo Drive - White

Apple’s Normal Price $1,099
MacMall’s Normal Price $1,094
4 Day Apple Sale Price $1,079.98
Mail-In Rebate $75
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 9% MacMall Part #7404921
Only $1,004.98
FREE Shipping*
$1079.98 Before Mail in Savings


FREE Shipping*
Apple 13.3" MacBook Intel Core 2 Duo 2.2GHz, 1GB Memory, 120GB Hard Drive, SuperDrive - White
Apple’s Normal Price $1,299
MacMall’s Normal Price $1,294
4 Day Apple Sale Price $1,144
Mail-In Rebate $100
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 20% MacMall Part #7349101 Only $1,094
$1144.00 Before Mail in Savings


FREE Shipping*
Apple 13.3" New MacBook Intel Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz, 2GB/160GB/SuperDrive - White

Apple’s Normal Price $1,299
MacMall’s Normal Price $1,294
4 Day Apple Sale Price $1,279.98
Mail-In Rebate $75
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 7% MacMall Part #7404922
Only $1,204.98
$1279.98 Before Mail in Savings


FREE Shipping*
Apple 13.3" New MacBook Intel Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz, 2GB/250GB/SuperDrive - Black
Apple’s Normal Price $1,499
MacMall’s Normal Price $1,494
4 Day Apple Price $1,479.98
Mail-In Rebate $100
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 8% MacMall Part #7404924 Only $1,379.98
$1479.98 Before Mail in Savings


FREE Shipping*
Apple 13.3" MacBook Air 1.8GHz 2GB RAM 80GB Hard Drive

Apple’s Normal Price $2,099
MacMall’s Normal Price $2,094
4 Day Apple Sale Price $2,074.99
Mail-In Rebate $75
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 5% MacMall Part #7373094
Only $1,999.99
$2074.99 Before Mail in Savings


FREE Shipping*
Apple 13.3" MacBook Air 1.6GHz 2GB RAM 80GB Hard Drive
Apple’s Normal Price $1,799
MacMall’s Normal Price $1,794
4 Day Apple Sale Price $1,739.94
Mail-In Rebate $50
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 6% MacMall Part #7373085 Only $1,689.94
$1739.94 Before Mail in Savings


FREE Shipping*
Apple 13.3" MacBook Air 1.8GHZ 2GB RAM 64GB Solid-State Drive

Apple’s Normal Price $3,099
MacMall’s Normal Price $3,094
4 Day Apple Sale Price $3,029.99
Mail-In Rebate $100
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 5% MacMall Part #7373089
Only $2,929.99
$3029.99 Before Mail in Savings


4 Day Apple Sale!
SAVE up to 38% on Apple Software



Microsoft Office 2008 for Mac - Home and Student Edition

Apple’s Normal Price $149
4 Day Apple Sale Price $129.98
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 13% MacMall Part #7352258
Only $129.98
FREE Shipping*


FREE Shipping*
Apple Software Apple Software
Mac OS X v10.5.1 Leopard - Single User
Apple’s Normal Price $129
MacMall’s Normal Price $129
4 Day Apple Sale Price $113.98
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 12% MacMall Part #7355254 Only $113.98



FREE Shipping*
Apple Software Apple Software
iWork ’08 Mac

Apple’s Normal Price $79
MacMall’s Normal Price $74.99
4 Day Apple Sale Price $68.98
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 13% MacMall Part #7288383
Only $68.98



FREE Shipping*
VMware Fusion for Mac OS
Apple’s Normal Price $79.95
4 Day Apple Sale Price $69.95
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 38% MacMall Part #7288411 Only $49.95
$69.95 Before Mail in Savings


FREE Shipping*
Apple Software Final Cut Express 4

Apple’s Normal Price $199
MacMall’s Normal Price $194
4 Day Apple Sale Price $179.98
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 10% MacMall Part #7351191
Only $179.98



4 Day Apple Sale!
SAVE up to 42% on Apple Accessories



Apple Wireless Mighty Mouse

Apple’s Normal Price $69
MacMall’s Normal Price $68.99
4 Day Apple Sale Price $39.99
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 42% MacMall Part #7089448
Only $39.99



FREE Shipping*
Apple AirPort Express Base Station with AirTunes
Apple’s Normal Price $99
MacMall’s Normal Price $97.99
4 Day Apple Sale Price $59.99
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 39% MacMall Part #448199 Only $59.99



Brenthaven Trek Sleeve Laptop Case for MacBook Air and 13.3" MacBook

Apple’s Normal Price $29
4 Day Apple Sale Price $22.99
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 21% MacMall Part #7497466
Only $22.99



FREE Shipping*
LaCie Big Disk Extreme+ Triple 1TB External FireWire 800/FireWire 400/Hi-Speed USB 2.0 Hard Drive
Apple’s Normal Price $339.95
MacMall’s Normal Price $317.99
4 Day Apple Sale Price $264.89
You SAVE from Apple’s Price 22% MacMall Part #7274662 Only $254.99












QUOTE(Bellissima @ June 24 2008, 02:45 PM) *
i didn't - melody mentioned that. which reinforced that some things - namely macs - don't go on sale.

i was hoping to stir a discussion.

and remind people that there is more than one way to increase their perceived value.

of course, lowering prices is always an option. i'm running a sale right now on sessions that i've never done before. they are pricey because i want to limit them. to generate interest, i put them 'on sale'. to close the deal, i can offer a bonus.

all i'm saying is that before you lower your price, which takes money out of your pocket, think about offering additional items that the client wants.

i regularly will print hundreds of dollars of prints at no charge for a client when they order their album. it's my way of thanking them for a very large order. i do include an invoice so that they know what the value of the prints are. sometimes a client needs to cut down a book by a few pages. i will print their favorite print from the cut pages and mat and frame it for them. it makes them happy, i keep the sale and it costs little for the rave.
think BIGGER!the discount to a student, so that when they graduate, they keep a loyal client who will be able to afford more and buy at regular price.

the incentive isn't created by giving a BIGGER student discount, it's created by giving a bonus. this keeps money going to the bottom line.

this is kind of a marketing lesson in disguise.

BTW - i did get a discount of 3% off my mac for my biz - if it's a BIZ purchase you will receive the discount, too. you will need the appropriate tax numbers.

EricM
QUOTE(Bellissima @ June 24 2008, 01:39 PM) *
...diamonds


Interesting example. If you want to model your marketing after somebody, De Beers would be a great place to start.

Let's take a non-rare gem and build up such hype that people think it has intrinsic value. Control the flow to the market, and voila... control the price and let people think the free market dictates the price.

That said, I can't imagine going to any jewelry store and paying "full price" for an item when most of them have regular 25-80% off sales.


Eric
MarkN
There's two things here.
1) lowering your price
and
2) giving more for free

When you lower your price, you are in essence saying, "I'm over priced to begin with" Thats why you can lower it. That the value is less than Im asking.
We all know computers are over priced from what they cost to make so you cant compare Apple to photography.
Thats why usually when you lower your price, it goes down hill from there. Many many horror stories about them wanting more. You've already put into motion that your asking "VALUE" is not correct.

When you give more for free, Then you are saying that the original value still stands, but I can lose money on this or that.

My photography (skill, eye, etc...) has a set value. That is what I am worth. Album pages, photos, frames, etc... change. They know that. More you buy, the cheaper, etc...

You are also saying that, while the value of me has not changed, I will most generously pay for these pages for you. My gift to you.

But the value of you hasnt changed.

Remember, photography is about you! not your camera, not your albums, not the paper you print on, but you as an individual. Thats why (hopefully) they pick you over someone else.

So, is one way, you are gracious and giving, in the other, your overpriced and greedy to begin with. (in their minds)

MarkN
QUOTE(EricM @ June 24 2008, 04:40 PM) *
Interesting example. If you want to model your marketing after somebody, De Beers would be a great place to start.

Let's take a non-rare gem and build up such hype that people think it has intrinsic value. Control the flow to the market, and voila... control the price and let people think the free market dictates the price.

That said, I can't imagine going to any jewelry store and paying "full price" for an item when most of them have regular 25-80% off sales.
Eric


The problem about diamonds, is that for most people, a diamond is a diamond is a diamond. Only the size and cut matters. You know they mark up the prices 100s of percent. That's why you can go to store x and see the same ring as store y for 20% less. You know store y just wants more profit.
But photography isnt like that. At least it shouldnt be. You bring individualality, skill, etc...
That isnt available everywhere.
Trust me, if there was a rare, one of a kind, diamond, it aint going to be on sale.

Unfortunately, a lot of photographers dont see themselves as unique, one of a kind. They are just another dude (or dudette) with a camera shooting weddings. and they market it themselves like everyone else.

turtle nate
QUOTE(MarkN @ June 24 2008, 06:46 PM) *
There's two things here.
1) lowering your price
and
2) giving more for free

When you lower your price, you are in essence saying, "I'm over priced to begin with" Thats why you can lower it. That the value is less than Im asking.
We all know computers are over priced from what they cost to make so you cant compare Apple to photography.
Thats why usually when you lower your price, it goes down hill from there. Many many horror stories about them wanting more. You've already put into motion that your asking "VALUE" is not correct.

When you give more for free, Then you are saying that the original value still stands, but I can lose money on this or that.

My photography (skill, eye, etc...) has a set value. That is what I am worth. Album pages, photos, frames, etc... change. They know that. More you buy, the cheaper, etc...

You are also saying that, while the value of me has not changed, I will most generously pay for these pages for you. My gift to you.

But the value of you hasnt changed.

Remember, photography is about you! not your camera, not your albums, not the paper you print on, but you as an individual. Thats why (hopefully) they pick you over someone else.

So, is one way, you are gracious and giving, in the other, your overpriced and greedy to begin with. (in their minds)



Penned well now pinned to wall.
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