Soooooo ...

Smugmug has print fulfillment, a very clean, user-friendly interface (that's easy to customize with the look of your website), right-click-protected galleries with auto-watermarking, SUPER LOW print prices, unlimited online storage of all your high-res JPGs, NO MONTHLY FEE, NO EVENT FEES, NO SPAM, customer service that rocks ...

I can't figure out why nobody uses them.

Their Pro Account is only $150 a YEAR ($75 right now for Flickr users). Yeah, $75 A YEAR!! For print fulfillment, they take 15% of the total order, which might be higher than a couple of other places, but their print prices are SOOOOOO much lower.

4x6 from Pictage : $2 (!!!!!!!)
4x6 from WHCC : 27¢ (and then you have to package/ship)
4x6 from SmugMug : 19¢

So, what's wrong? What am I missing? Tell me why you don't use 'em ...

have you gotten test prints from them?

I used them for quite a while, and I had A LOT of customer returns because the color was SO BAD.
This wasn't me being over-picky. It was bad printing.
They don't do the printing (at least they didn't when I was using them).

It was a cust. service nightmare when I'd have a return:

-client orders
-smugmug outsources the order to ezprints
-customer gets order, and doesn't like it
-customer calls me
-I look up the order & call smugmug
-smugmug asks me to ask the customer to ship the order back
-smugmug points a finger at the printer
-customer's waiting on me for an answer or a refund/replacement

it happened way too often for me.
I went to self-fulfillment (acutally started ezphotosales because I was sick of commissions & being the middle-man)

Get a bunch of test prints BEFORE you start using them for customer orders and make sure you're happy with the quality!!!

15% per order.... haha... i wouldn't give that to anyone. I fulfill through WHCC and proof using carey's EZPS.

19 Cents per 4x6? you get what you pay for. WHCC's prints are much more accurate and consistent from what I've heard... and the customer service is second to none (besides KISS, but that's kind of irrelevant.)

Yeah, but I don't want to self-fulfill. Tooooooo busy right now.



I don't know ... I'll have to send off for some test prints. I love WHCC prints, but like I said, self fulfilling isn't an option for me right now. I know Pictage uses EZPrints, too - and they charge me $2 for a single 4x6. So NOPE, you don't always get what you pay for.

Might look at zenfolio too. They print through mPix... I've been quite happy with what I've gotten so far. And the prices are comparable to what you have listed there, only they charge 6% on the margin, not on the entire sale.

I use Smugmug, and love them. However, I also use Pictage, AND I self-fufill most of the time. I use each one at different times:

Smugmug-proofing for most of my sessions. I allow friends and family of the client to order from them, but fufill, package and hand deliver the clients order. I'm just not crazy about smugmugs packaging.

Pictage-I joined when it was only $50 per month, and I still have a hard time justifying it. I use them to host my weddings, but mostly I stay on for the free album design. The cost of prints is ridiculous, but they are packaged nicely.

I've also wondered why more people don't use smugmug. It's an amazing service, you can even put a video in the client's gallery, not to mention to ability to touch-up an image AFTER an order has been placed.

You can also sell digital downloads ... LOOOOOVE THAT!

Maybe I'll ONLY offer digital downloads. That's what everyone wants anyway. Maybe not ... just thinking out loud

Quite frankly, I never gave them a shot when they first came out because I thought that their company name did not sound professional enough... may sound silly, but the name SmugMug never instilled confidence in me.

I have smugmug for my older weddings. they just switched to kodak but I have had issues with color before. Several prints came back with the bride looking like a lobster! BUT not all of them... they were all shot and edited the same. Something screwy on their end.

I started using zenfolio in Oct 07. I think the yearly is $100 then either 12% or 15% commission off profit. they offer the option to create custom coupon codes and since all my weddings include a print credit, I love that the couple can add to their cart as they want, crop them as they want (i have the option to review and change/approve before the order is confirmed), they enter their coupon to discount the credit from the total then enter their cc
to pay for shipping. E.F.F.O.R.T.L.E.S.S. LOVE THEM!

use ezsales or photo cart
it takes like 5 mins to put an order thru. On a $300 order you will save yourself something like $45. I can handle that for 5 mins of work. I was like you and thought I was too busy, but then I realized that it doesn't take that long. I use whcc and do the drop ship. I haven't had a problem yet.

im with sarah.... its really isn't that it takes that long as much as it takes effort. I'm just that lazy i guess.... I love that clients have their images in about a week... 3 days if they pay an extra $5 for overnight shipping. When clients placed orders before, generally the order would sit in my inbox for a good 3 days...sometimes more before I ordered it.

SmugMug = non-pro when I started. I think the association always stuck that every hobbyist I knew was on SM. Not to mention the fact that they (used to?) use EZPRINTS for their printing (which is why it was horrible). I wonder if they still do - Ezprints is pretty much the worst printer I've ever seen or dealt with. To make a novel a short story, they credited me with almost $350 worth of prints. That's how bad they were.... $350 at .33?!? That's what, 1000 bad prints?

because WHCC is so wonderful. i'd also use proDPI, if i needed a backup.
we fill our own orders.

I agree that just the name "smugmug" sounds a little "non-pro" Sorry for those who do use it. I know a couple of hobbiests who use it. Also, isn't smugmug listed as the domain name when you go to the site, with a bunch of codes etc? I prefer photocart where it is an extention of my own site name.

When I looked at someone's photos on smugmug, I actually thought it was a free listing, and not an ordering site. I liked the look of pictage, since it sends the msg to the clients that you are pro.

Just my opinion.

You can use a custom URL - you don't have to use the URL with "SmugMug" in it. Pictage doesn't give you an URL without Pictage in it.

I don't think using Pictage send a message to clients that you're a pro. None of my clients had ever heard of Pictage before I started using them and since then they only mention Pictage to tell me how many emails they get (in a negative way )

I guess I think if you have really great photos in the gallery, nobody will think you're an amatuer, even if you're using SmugMug. The interface is MUCH nicer than Pictage's and it's a lot easier to really see the photos (have you ever tried to zoom into a Pictage photo??)

Any other reasons from anyone? I sent off for some test prints today so we'll see how the printing and packaging looks. So far, I'm really liking them a LOT.

I have to agree that "smugmug" just sounds.... dumb. The smugmug sites that I have seen are mostly amateurs, and even the "pro" sites that I've seen just leave a lot to be desired. It's too bad really, but the name totally ruins it for me too.

I though you quit using them last year?

I'm confused?

use the search feature much?

I saw her post the same question on DWF- where she referenced a similar thread on OSP. So I came over here to find it. I had to search to find the recent one, and the other popped up as well.

I noticed the dichotomy, and my brain started to hurt (I'm a guy, after all, and it doesn't take much for the noggin to lock up)

Yep, I did use them last year - I quit using them because of a very annoying upload problem I had. That prob has since been addressed. Then I used PhotoCart. Then I went with Pictage. It's been a long process for me finding someone I really like Just recently I checked out SmugMug again and since my upload issue is no longer an issue, I couldn't see any reason to not go back to using them.

I'm really liking them so far, so I (still) can't figure out why more people don't use them. Hence the questions.

Any other thoughts?

i honestly think its the name and the fact that so many hobbyists are associated with them.

Yep, that's what I'm starting to think, too, Tami.

but you use it... along with everyone else. No offense but I think it looks ridiculous.



http://sarah-q.smugmug.com My point exactly...

look at it this way, if you went to an exclusive spa, where they catered to big stars and hollywood and hob nobbers, etc. and when it came time for your facial and they pulled out Wal-Mart brand masks and creams, wouldnt it freak you out? (and sorta piss you off?)

what's in a name? A LOT.

Just to hijack the thread a bit...

I'm seeing another wave of folks leaving Pictage. Perhaps Pictage will take this as a learning experience, and re-address their pricing issues. If folks are leaving them for a company with a name like "Smug Mug"...

I'm just sayin...

do you really think the amount of people actually leaving pictage will impact their business to such a degree that they will take a look?

Yes... they now have an overlord ... er.... "investors". Apex or some such company is now th majority shareholder, and gave them the seed money they used the last few years to get all the shoot-n-burn beginners into their fold.

When a company doesn't make the projected revenue, the investors, or parent company start looking at business model.

really? i think it's adorable. i must be one of those freaks that doesn't look at the url that closely - actually very rarely. and it's a really cute layout.

wow. i was unaware of this tidbit. this could get interesting...

Thanks Robin I guess I'm one of those people, too. I'm about 99% sure my clients aren't going to be name-snobs about this issue like most of the people here. I definitely don't think they'll see my photos on a nice looking site and be pissed off, or compare me to Wal Mart. That's just silly.

sarah, i can't help but think that you have just asked for our opinion and didnt like what you heard and are now mad?

please sista, say it aint so......

No way! I'm not mad! I'm just surprised that the most mentioned reason for not using them is their name. That's just silly.

I'm also surprised that people won't use them because they print for amateurs and wanna-be pros, too. I can't see why that matters (??)

I'm definitely interested in the bad print comments - I've sent off for test prints and emailed them to ask about the possibility of having lab choices. I love getting good feedback - I just think there's a lot of snobbiness on this issue for some reason and I'm a little baffled by it.

I do think it's crappy of Sofa Boy up there to dis my SmugMug site for no reason. But I always think he's a jerk, so I try to never respond to anything he says. Maybe that's why I got pissy. To the rest of you who offered advice and opinions - thanks!! Much appreciated!

What about Pick Pic?

Sarah, I'm quite surprised that you're surprised. I would think this is the ultimate reason to not use Smugmug, Pbase, or any of the consumer-oriented photo printing sites!

Bottom line: Having your own system looks more professional -- in my opinion -- and also allows you more quality control.

This business is about looks and perception. If you're in the business of selling your work, perception is so incredibly important.

If you're trying to differentiate yourself from "amateurs and wanna-be pros" why would you consider putting your work under the same web domain as those non-professionals? Why use the same lab as them?

I read your thread on the other forum and this one as well. If you have a Photo Cart and aren't looking to do small orders, why not have a minimum order amount? What about having your assistant handle the print orders?

One concern I have in general about these forums, and this is not directed at you Sarah, is this theme of "Too busy. Must outsource." for virtually everything. Smugmug isn't necessarily in this category but I think it would be difficult to sell people on that "unique, personal touch" when they end up buying your products at the same site as their Uncle Bob.

She doesn't want to self-fulfill.

I do think Sarah's being a bit too harsh on the folks who are (as she puts it) "name snobs."

The name is a valid point because names do matter. It may not make a difference to you, but it is worth considering.

Make a decision that's good for you and stick to it with confidence! You can always be open to change and improvment, but finding what's best for you and going with it will ultiately be best for you & your business instead of flip-flopping around and constantly changing labs/proofing-systems/vendors. There's a line between always searching for the best possible solution for your business and changing your mind so often that it starts to look spazzy. Clearly, I don't have an MBA, because I'm sure there's a better "business/MBA" term for "spazzy". But hopefully my point will be taken without being viewed as a personal attack, which it's NOT.

~Carey

I think SmugMug galleries DO look professional - I actually like their layout better than any of the others I've used. And I do think I differentiate myself pretty well with my photos, my style, my personality. I really don't see this being any kind of issue with any of my clients or prospective clients.

I also upload my photos to Flickr, which is OVERFLOWING with amateurs. When I tell my clients they can pull their photos from my Flickr page for their MySpace pages, they get super excited. I've never ONCE had someone say "Oh, you use Flickr? That's so unprofessional!"

I also use Blogger - my URL is : http://www.roxyandkaiphotography.blogspot.com. Notice the "blogspot" name in there? Does that bother people as much as the smugmug name on the proofing page? I really don't think so. But maybe that's just me

As for outsourcing - I completely disagree. My clients are getting my personal touch. I spend hours working with them to get photos they love and I feel like outsourcing the things I don't have time to do right is doing them a big favor. Since I started outsourcing, my clients get their photos faster, their albums faster and have a non-stressed out, fun photographer to work with instead of an overworked, tired, cranky beyotch who hasn't seen her kids in weeks. It's a win-win


EDITED to add :

Robin - I completely agree about flipping around! I've been really trying to find something that works for me and have every intention of sticking with something when I do. I've only been in business for two years and it's been a roller coaster! I was doing Craigslist weddings for $500 a year ago! I've come a long way and I think it's because of how hard I've worked to make my business/products/services really FIT ME.

Hi Sarah,

I'm going to respectfully disagree. In the 12+ years I've been in this biz, plus 3 before that working for another full serve studio... there is a client perception that "professional" equals "better quality".

With Photographs, there are two facets to the equation. Quality of the photograpic image (what comes out of the camera) and Quality of the Printing medium&technician printing the image.

I've seen many many people curious about why our prints are more expensive... they see the end result: the PRINT as just paper. They already paid for our expertise with the session fee. Why would you as a professional, charge them twice for your service?

You already collected a session fee for your talent. Now they're just ordering your work on paper. They already paid for YOUR work, and now you're charging an outrageous amount for a piece of paper. A cheap piece of paper that you get from the same place THEY can order a print from. Same paper... different price.

In today's world of increasing DIYers, having a professional distinction between not only your output -- but also on the quality of the materials it's made with speaks volumes.

A guy I used to work for told me the story of his father's new Rolls Royce.

After about a month his dad noticed the stitching on the driver's seat was getting loose. He called the dealer, and they scheduled an appointment to come out and "look at it".

A van showed up, a technician and the dealer got out. They asked to be shown the car. He let them into the garage, but the dealer wouldn't even let him open the car door, and instead took him back to the house. He pulled a small coffee maker out, brewed them each a cup of coffee and chatted about anything but the car.

After about 30 minutes, the dealer (who was watching the garage through a window), cleaned up the coffee stuff (he even brought his own mugs, creamer, sugar, etc) and thanked the owner for his time.

"Did they get the seat fixed?"

"Was there a problem with the seat, sir?" asked the dealer.

"The stitching pulled loose..."

"Sir! Our stitches don't ever pull lose! If they do, call us and we'll take care of it!" he said with a wink!

Consider this... would you pay for a Rolls Royce, with cloth seats they purchased from the Ford Dealer?

What we're trying to tell you is quality isn't just limited to what you do with the camera. It matters what you print on, and client perception is the second half of the equation in this business.

I've read the Rolls story 3x now.... and I just don't get it.



I guess I'm having a boneheaded day, but I don't see the point and the story is just confusing.

Yeah, I don't get it either Troy ??

And I don't charge an outrageous amount for my prints ... 95% of the prints sold on SmugMug will be to wedding guests who just want a few 4x6s. I charge $5 for each. We're not talking wall portraits here.

Rolls Royce autos NEVER have problems with their quality -- they are the epitome of quality.

By taking care of the problem with extreme professionalism, and doing so invisibly to the owner, they kept their quality standard at the peak of extreme quality.

My friend has a sign up in his shop that says... if a client has a problem, fix it quickly and IMPRESSIVELY.

The way they fixed it, both the client and the dealer knew the problem existed, but they fixed it impressively, with no fuss, no bother. And they kept their perception of quality with the car owner very high.

I think it means British people are sneaky

~rc

well... do i really have to point it out? that's getting kinda nosey.... (hahahahahhahah)

And a client's perception of your product (not the talent in capturing the image - but the actual product) begins with your perception of it.

Rolls Royce is an internationally recognized symbol of quality.

If they just let anyone wander into the dealership, and you saw Bubba and Mabel and their three dirt encrusted, barefoot kids wandering around inside the dealership, you'd question that level of quality. Rolls Royce requires that you set an appointment to discuss the purchase of one of their autos. Not just anyone can walk in. Especially not the beverly hillbillies -- even Jed Clampet would have to make an appointment.

I'm not trying to get you to raise your quality perceptions up to the level of Rolls Royce... but, why not? YOU are the primary source in how your clients learn to perceive your product.

Why is a 4x6 not like a wall portrait? Do the client who purchase a 4x6 deserve any less of your professionalism, talent or quality than the client who purchases a 40x60 gallery wrap canvas?

Every print, every disk, every client that leaves your studio is the same blank canvas for you to set your quality level with. Every print, every product that leaves your studio reflects on you.

Hope this makes more sense.

Denying the problem existed and invisibly fixing it with a "wink" is professional and impressive?

Troy, we agree on many things (I even have Rush here on my radio next to me), but that story still doesn't make sense to me.



I think the whole "our cars NEVER have a problem... wink wink" is NOT professional, but I'd probably never own a Rolls. Maybe the "wink wink" professionalism is most impressive to those types of folks.

Personally, I'd prefer complete and total honesty, admitting the problem, and doing everything to fix it instead of mysteriously having coffee and a "wink" while the problem just gets "erased from history" as if it never existed.

Which brings me back to my biggest beef with Smugmug. When there WERE problems, it was a customer service nightmare with me being stuck in the middle between my clients/customers and smugmug & their lab.
That & the commissions are why I left.

I'll start my response by saying that when I think of the difference between the work of a professional photographer and an amateur I think of permanence.

With the proliferation of fly-by-night-one-camera-and-a-template-website "professionals" out there it is really hard for clients to immediately detect the difference between a competent photographer producing quality, durable products and someone one bounced retainer check away from not being able to pick up their proof order from Wal-Mart.

Unabashedly using the same consumer sources for your products is a mistake, in my opinion, if you intend to be at the higher end or even upper-middle market. Please bear in mind that my opinions below are based on my assumptions about your market and price point ($3500 - $6000 weddings).


The interface and galleries may look "professional" but it doesn't change the fact that the service itself is marketed to, built for, and accessible by non-professionals. That in itself doesn't mean the service is poor, the quality is low, or that it doesn't work, but it does mean that the clients are paying more for the same thing as Uncle Bob -- and you're not even changing the packaging.


I don't know if this really applies. Flickr is a photo sharing site. I would consider it a way to save on bandwidth and stream your work without taxing your webhost. It's kind of in the vein of Facebook, MySpace, LinkedIn, etc.


I think it looks more professional to have a domain name and to have it at your own webhost. Again, permanence.


We can agree to disagree (as is our wont at this discussion forum). The drop-shipping services of some of the pro labs is what I would consider a "personal touch" -- even if it's kind of synthetic and you never actually touch the prints.

Delivering essentially self-serve products from a consumer site is the antithesis of a "personal touch".

LOL hahahahahahaThat's Sofa KING to you, little lady.And btw my posting that was not meant to offend you... I simply offered my opinion, as everyone else has. You just didn't like it. That doesn't make me a jerk, but you're entitled to your opinion, just as you are about smugmug. I think "smugmug" is corny, and I think their sites look cluttered... but that's my opinion. I never said you're an amateur, I never said you're unprofessional (although your response to my post was a bit unnecessary... but lets not go there)Enjoy your smugmug site. Please do me and everyone else a favor though... don't ask for peoples opinions unless you're ready to accept what they say.

and erhmmmm might I add again... I did what everyone else did... i told you why I don't use smugmug.... isn't that the title of your thread? sheesh... relax.

Welcome to the Club Trevor!

PS: I agree with Damon.

Get over yourself Trevor.

Thanks for the responses everyone!

Sarah,

Obviously I am biased here because I use Smugmug. I've never had a problem with quality or customer service. I've had plenty of clients order large gallery wraps off my site and I've seen them hanging in their homes and they look great! If your work is good, which yours is, I don't think the url is going to matter one bit. It hasn't for me.

Taka

Thanks for the laugh Sarah. It's people with attitudes like you who make OSP so wonderful and entertaining to read time and time again.

Just wait....

You haven't been called a "Sexist Pig" yet!

(That's when you get the secret decoder ring and we teach you the secret handshake).