Okay, so I am trying to find some second shooter opportunities. I am responding to everything I see locally (usually via craigslist or other area-centric forums). I have left polite, detailed replies, and so far I am not getting much in the way of responses.

I have been mentioning that I would like to use my second shooter images, (with acknowledgement that they are just that) on my blog or website. (Probably more likely on my blog.) However, that said, I'm hungry for experience, period, so that wouldn't be a deal breaker.

I also have seen ads that request that you respond with your day rates. I am at a loss here. Honestly, for awhile, I'd be willing to do them for free, just to get some more practice in. However, business-wise, I know it's pretty dumb to not get some compensation, which I can at least throw in a lens fund. What is the going rate on second shooters?

Honestly, I wish these people would either respond and set me straight if I'm doing something offensive (like asking if I can use my own images on my blog), or just tell me if my photos suck or what. The silence is frustrating.

For those of you that do second shoot, what is an average job like? Do you hand over your memory cards and that's that? Do any of you edit the images or do a rough selection to separate the keepers? Do you typically get more money if you have to travel a considerable distance away? (With gas at $4/gallon, what isn't a considerable distance now??)

Any insight would be most appreciated.

Edited to add:

Along these lines, feel free to share any postive or negative second shooter experiences you've had either as the SS or main photographer. I get that the SS role is secondary, that you are there to make the main photographer's business look good, and professionalism is key. But are there any other things a new SS should be aware of?

I am feeling the same way. I have no experience and would love to second shoot. Haven't gotten any reponses to any of the inquiries I have sent out.

Hi Lynn,

For my second shooters, they are mainly there for alternate angles during ceremony and reception shots, and additional candid images, but I also rely on them as an assistant to me. I really need a second shooter to there if I need a lens change, to help organize group photos and be my right hand during the portraits. Sometimes that means holding a flash off camera or a reflector, other times it's just shooting, it really depends on the wedding. The second shooter does need to set up lighting for indoor group photos and various other things. It's really hard to find a great second shooter who can anticipate what I need and I have a couple that I rotate right now, so I don't usually allow someone else to come as a second (unless none of my others are available), however, I do suggest they tag along just for experience if they are interested. I hope that helps!

Krystal

Ok where to start.

Pricing - This will change from market to market. I see you are in Michigan, I frankely do not know what a SS can charge in that market. I work out of San Diego CA all the way up to LA on second shooting gigs. I normally charge at minimum $50 per hour for SS, all the way up to $100 per hour for photographer I have worked with for many years (the ones that know the value of my photography.)

I would say a starting price of $50 per hour should hold in your market too. But this doesn't work everywhere. I have a friend who lives near the Brooks Institute of Photography and pays second shooters NOTHING. He can snatch up students who are hungry to work, and get in the field experience working weddings, for free. I personally do not think this practice is fair to the qualified shooters out there, but some see nothing wrong with it. Thats life.

As far as finding jobs on CL - Good Luck. CL is the place people go to to find the cheapest price for work out there. I have had leads on CL that wanted to pay me $100 per day for SS. I had to laugh at them on the phone and hang up. The best way to find work in this field is knowing photographers! If you know someone and talk them into using you they might recommend you to another photographer. This is how I booked almost every SS gig I have ever had.

Travel time - I only charge past 50 Miles. If you can arrange it, get a ride with the main photographer on long distance trips. Once I was driven out to Palm Springs to work a wedding and didn't have to spend a dime of my own gas budget. Heck it helps the environment too. CARPOOL.

Work for Hire vs. Subcontracting - This one is important. You are the Second Photographer. The copyright belongs to you when you press the shutter release. DO NOT "WORK FOR HIRE"!!!! NEVER!!! Work for Hire means you are being hired on a one time basis by the photographer paying you. This means HE/SHE OWNS YOUR IMAGES AND YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS TO THEM!!!!

I only work as a Sub-Contractor with any photographer I work with. This means I grant limited copyright to the photographer to print my pictures and sell them to their client. NO ADDITIONAL RIGHTS ARE EVER GRANTED. I retain the right to sell my work or use it in my own self promotion any way I see fit. You might need a model release from the Bride and Groom but this is rarely a problem.

Image Delivery - I do not trust other photographers to return 20+ GigaBytes in my own memory cards. I go home after the wedding. Download to my own computer (with RAID backup systems.) Do a basic rough edit (delete the WTF images.) I also load the image with Metadata and my contact information and Copyright. Batch rename my images. Mail a DVD, often 3-5, on Monday morning to the Photographer who contracted me to work. Besides, do you really want to hand over ALL of your memory cards to another photographer hoping the have them returned quickly. I have photo shoots throughout the week and need my memory cards to take pictures.

Rant over.

James


p.s. I love second shooting.

James,

Thanks for the detailed info. I really do not plan on handing over cards unless I'm sitting in front of their computer and they are handing them right back at me.


At this point $100/day would be fine to me. I have a day job, and I am more interested in gaining experience rather than using second shooting as a viable method of income. But I will keep what you say in mind for when I'm further along.

Your info on "work for hire" vs. subcontracting is also helpful and something to file away for future reference.

I'm still wondering if my requests about using my own images in my portfolio is alienating people. It just seems odd to me that out of the half dozen requests I've sent out, I've only gotten ONE response, and it was from someone who it turned out wanted MUCH more than a SS (she wanted someone to keep hours in her studio, do all the editing, promote her business, etc.)

a quick thought, sometimes less is more.

Maybe you just need to email, say "hi, I'd definitely be interested and here's how you can reach me..."

If they're specifically asking for more details answer those, but don't go into detail about what you're looking to get from it, you can talk about that once you get the job... then you can see what they're willing to let you do or not do...

Best of luck.

edit:
Just saw James' comments. Great insights.

I will say though, if you are just starting out, there is nothing wrong with getting hired as a second shooter and having no rights to the images if you're simply looking to get experience on a job. But, if you specifically only looking to build your portfolio then yes, make sure you can use those, but also realize that will probably take away a lot of opportunities to get second shooting/assisting jobs.

Have you tried calling photographers? I know it is scary to cold call people but you might find someone who needs a second (heck even being an assistant first might get you in the door.)

I have seen your website and you have a portfolio to show people. I would call some up and talk them into trying you. If your personality clicks you might just find a studio that will use you over and over all season long.

Good luck and never quit.

James

Wow great insight. Though I have read that many wedding photographs want the rights to the photos their seconds shoots. Am I assuming that most all of them want this or just the select few that posted?

Tim I totally agree with your first part that less is more. However, there's no reason you can't have a bit of both. I, personally, would rather be batter dipped from stem to stern and fried than not have rights to my images.

At the minimum they should be usable in a print portfolio, preferably print & web with notations that they were taken as a secondary shooter to xxyyzz studio.
Then again, I'm stubborn as all hell and have very strong convictions on certain things. So really, for as much as this works for me, it certainly won't work for everyone.

Also, the 2nd shooting gigs i've done have been about 7-10 hours and i averaged about $175 for them with the bottom being $100 and the top being $250ish. However I can use them in a print portfolio, and at an online portfolio website with proper crediting of course.

Look for a shooter who's in the 3-5K per wedding range and give them an email or cold call. They usually realize that you won't be starting in their price bracket, and by the time you are in their range you should have a good rapport and can actually help eachother with referrals and seconding, referring second shooters, information about locations, church regulations, vendors and vendor contacts etc.

Just keep looking and shooting. If you're sending an email and you don't have any wedding experience send a link to a portfolio with any Portrait experience. Make sure the shots represent your work well and just keep looking around. If you're looking for names in your area and can't find many join The Kn_o_t (google prevention) and scrape some names off of there.

I just want to throw this in the mix, from the perspective of someone who uses second shooters. It may have alot to do with the fact that your local photographers do not know you. There is alot more to being a 2nd shooter than photo skill. I usually do not use a 2nd shooter unless either I know them personally, I have met and interviewed them, or I have been given a referral from someone I trust.

Owning good equipment is not the most important thing. I will rent equipment for a 2nd shooter if needed. Skill is very necessary, but there are tons of skillful photographers around here. Personality is the thing that usually does it for me, and I can't know personality by looking at an internet posting.

I do not want to take the chance of having someone on my team who might be a distraction/nuisance/more work than help/too loud and obnoxious/the list goes on... I want people to remember that the wedding photographers were great, period. I heard of a 2nd shooter that was running inside the brides home, stepped on an item that belonged to the family and ruined it. The choice to run is a personality issue. People remember mistakes, they remember the photographer who annoyed them. Not to say I expect perfection (that would exclude me), but since I have a pretty large pool of friends that are photographers to choose from, I'm always going to go with the ones I know.

So, the obvious question is, how do you meet photographers? By going to the OSP meets (see meeting posts) or organizing one yourself. Or by patiently shooting shooting shooting and eventually meeting more like-minded people who are photographers.

Best wishes!

in st. louis, going rates for second shooting vary from $200-300/day. when i started second shooting five years ago with no wedding experience, i made $10/hr. whoa.

i am seeing more and more photographers limit use of their second photographer's images, but i have been fortunate to work with great folks who let me use my work. when i post images on the blog, i always mention that i shot with so-and-so and link to their blog. i won't do work for hire now unless the compensation makes up for it and i've found that rates are usually the same, so i just avoid it. that's a whole other debate.

for the most part, when i second, i shoot. but occasionally i help with lighting, hauling gear, etc. i never mention my own business and yes, am there to promote whomever i'm working with.

i shoot with my own gear, mostly on my own cards, and download to the main shooter's laptop before the day is over. occasionally, i shoot on their cards and they mail me a disc.

if your goal is to eventually do your own weddings and i assume it is, i would try to find someone who's work you admire who will be willing to share their experiences. contact them directly. some people are very protective over everything. the way i see it, there's enough to go around and those who are protective are just insecure. again, i've been lucky to work with awesome folks, not surprisingly some OSP folks. kim and amy at silverbox got me started back in the day. and michelle ross rocks the house.

i've also learned a lot about how i don't want to do business through interviewing and shooting with a couple of wedding factories in town, so that was valuable, too, in its own right.

I'm in Denver and I do a lot of 2nd shooting. I actually like it better than doing my own weddings. But that's another subject for another day. Here rates are anywhere from $20/hour to $300/day depending on your experience, who you're working with and for how long.

I found the people I work with in a myriad of ways. Craigslist, networking, referals and cold calling. It's not easy, but eventually you make a break through. There is a statistic I vaguely remember about getting jobs in which is takes 50 resume submissions to get one interview and on average 4 interviews to get a job. I think you have to consider this kind of statistic when you pound pavement looking for work. So make your 200 contacts and you might find one that works!

I'm not sure why some people chose me. Occasionally it's personality, mostly its images/experience and at first it was DEFINITLY NOT equipment. My skill and ability to talk about it, plus the experiences I had prior to pursuing weddings helped a lot.

As for image rights, thats a whole 'nother situation. James seems VERY lucky in both the rates he charges and rights he retains. I'll have to pick his brain about that sometime! In my experience I am generally able to have images for print portfolios and have forged relationships that allow me to publish my images online in certain specific scenarios with permission and credit to the company I shot with.

The reason I've heard most often about WHY hiring photographers retain rights to your images is that they don't want potential clients seeing the same images on 2 websites. I have a friend whose 2nd shooter ended up competing for the same wedding and the poor couple was incredibly confused as to why 2 different photographers were showing her the same portfolio of images.

As far as brevity vs. novels in Craigslist email replies I personally err on the side of brevity. Links to your images, clarity on your experience, a succinct expression of your interest and something that makes it clear I have a distinct and likeable personality seem to help me... I'm generally honest, not too formal and FAR MORE BRIEF than I have been in this post...

GOOD LUCK! I don't know a think about Michigan, but I hope the people here can help you

I can understand why you're not getting responses.

In a lot of ways you're trying to skip ahead of the dues-paying curve.

Think about it from the perspective of an established photographer: You get a call or email out of the blue from someone you don't know from Adam. This person asks you to pay them to second shoot *and* wants to use images they shoot (at a wedding you booked through your own marketing efforts) to go on their website. Not to mention this person didn't even ask to carry your bags...

So if I'm an established pro, why am I going to bring a stranger to an event and let this stranger see how I work, what I use, how I interact with my clients and guests, etc. And what nerve, this prospective second shooter has to tell me how they're going to use the pictures!

Email delete.

Nothing against anyone looking for an opportunity.