QUOTE(Troy Hill @ June 28 2008, 05:06 PM)
The great liberal mantra: Oil is evil.
I never said oil is evil, but our dependence, the dwindling supply of it as well as the length to which the oil companies will often go to secure oil rights is prelude to a very dark time in the near future. Right now we have options and we need to at least consider exercising them. I think the oil industry behaves as corporate entities do - to secure their shareholders more cash. I don't argue with that model and I do believe the market WILL correct itself. However, the American government has been providing absolutely ENORMOUS tax breaks, incentives and low cost leases to the oil companies that the market can't reasonably be expected to correct itself.
We need to level the playing field in Washington and force our politicians to acknowledge the work they do on behalf of oil companies. Right now, there is little transparency and this is on both sides of the aisle. Lobbying is not inherently a bad thing until industries engage in unfair practices that choke our federal government with so much money and propaganda that reasonable, promising, less well-funded options won't be met with much less heard. It’s basic anti-trust violation and doesn’t allow the market to work as it should.
If the government is going to craft effective policy, it should be hearing from all reasonable sources, especially in a time when it is clear that our current regulatory policies got us into this trouble in the first place, not just the market alone.
QUOTE(Troy Hill @ June 28 2008, 05:06 PM)
Also, I'm having a tough time finding links to data about which oil companies have rights to ready supplies, but aren't drilling. Can you supply a few links?
I know it can be hard to use The Internets with all of their tubes, Troy, but if you Google something as simple as “oil companies developing domestic existing leases” you get a huge number of hits and using that keen journalistic mind of yours will bring to the exact inspiration and font of information which I referenced.
First check this out:
http://resourcescommittee.house.gov/images...icas_energy.pdfThen Google “Responsible Federal Oil and Gas Lease Act” which Bush promised to Veto. In the last 5 years, we have doubled the number of oil leases to Big Oil companies and oil prices have continued climb at historic rates. We have QUADRUPLED the number of drilling permits in the last 9 years. And still the price of oil goes up, up , up. Why?
How about this:
“If we extrapolate from today’s production rates on federal land and
waters, we can estimate that the 68 million acres of leased but currently
inactive federal land and waters could produce an additional 4.8 million
barrels of oil and 44.7 billion cubic feet of natural gas each day.
That would nearly double total U.S. oil production, and increase natural
gas production by 75%. It would also cut U.S. oil imports by more than a third,
and be more than six times the estimated peak production from the Arctic
National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR)”
Oil companies are sitting on 68 MILLION acres of undeveloped, untapped domestic oil fields. 68 MILLION!!! They are trying to stock up on offshore and ANWAR oil fields before Bush gets out of office. It’s as simple as that. They are stocking up for winter.
Additionally, all research clearly states that even IF we opened up all of those extra oilfields, the prices will not go down because the oil companies don’t want that to happen. They have the world market in a corner. They are making SO much more money with oil at $130 a gallon. When your prices are that high, you can increase the margins much more aggressively without people noticing. The higher the prices go, the more money they make. The demand may go down in the U.S. because of some changes we make (doubtful at best) but it is going UP UP UP in the rest of the world.
Is that what you were looking for? Republican cynicism and misinformation on this front borders on criminal. It’s not your fault you are feeding bad information back into the system, but at LEAST be willing to listen to reason and admit the possibility that the reasons for this aggressive attempt to open up new fields may not be based on real need or a reasonable expectation that it will affect price now or in the future.
QUOTE(Troy Hill @ June 28 2008, 05:06 PM)
Ooops! It's blame Bush time. No wonder congress won't open up drilling anywhere. (Hint: GWB is NOT running for President this year, so there's no reason for Obama to run against him).
Not once did I blame Bush in all of this. I blame Washington that has been in bed with oil lobbyists for many years. Now that you mention it though, The Bush presidency has allowed the oil lobby to completely rewrite energy policy in the last eight years with unfettered, secretive access to the White House, as well as the Saudis and all sorts of really ugly dictators and soul-crushing governments that do nothing to support the democracy we herald as our birthright. I suppose it doesn’t help appearances that our President and Vice President are both former Oil C.E.O.s.
QUOTE(Troy Hill @ June 28 2008, 05:06 PM)
Let's take your idea, and run with it: How about we get congress to outlaw the internal combustian engine tomorrow!
You agree that Islamic Radical Terrorists are bad men, so clearly the logical conclusion to your sentiment is that we should kill ALL Muslims, right? This not intellectually honest and is an old political trick. Blech. I think I just threw up in my mouth.
QUOTE(Troy Hill @ June 28 2008, 05:06 PM)
Your plan for getting the country to be conservative on oil is.... ?
how about if we just get the country to be Conservative? Free market is actually bringing alternative forms of energy automobiles in faster than liberal environmnetalism ever did.
smile.gif <-------- just to let you know I still like you!
This is the first time in the history of our nation that we have not asked our citizens not to sacrifice to protect our freedoms in a time of war. We are in TWO wars and try as you might to connect them, they are two totally separate wars surrounding Iran which is a potential third. Your argument isn’t sound because it ignores the entirety of history and flies in the face of everything we know about international conflict and oil as a limited, unrenewable resource. I know no nation has ever taxed itself into prosperity, but neither has a nation faced war and economic strife and succeeded without asking its citizens to make sacrifices, conserve natural resources and to adjust to a limited government intervention to right the nation’s course toward further prosperity. The G.O.P. seems so willing to sacrifice our civil liberties to win this war, but not to ask us to reduce our dependency on oil and to pay for the wars rather than foisting the cost onto future generations. Here are some thing which might help.
-Kill Tax breaks and incentives for oil companies who have made RECORD PROFITS for the last several years. In the face of extraordinary pressures on other industries, it is shameful that we continue to provide billion dollars of relief for these industries that we crafted when oil was at $30 a barrel.
-Put that money into research…through the MILITARY if you want, I don’t care…award it to people for the aggressive development of alternatives to oil, both to help in the short run and as an investment in our future capabilities.
-Give tax breaks to industries that engage in energy efficient practices in new plants and buildings and reduce energy consumption by federal and state agencies. That’s easy.
-Provide REAL breaks to drivers now (lifting the federal gas tax for the summer is so cynical and just dumb, I think we all agree on that…average driver gets $25 back over the whole summer? This will cost the American Taxpayer more to implement than it saves. Come ON! We need real policies) not just on the gas tax, but a mileage-based tax break like businesses get. (This is a short-term measure…) Give HUGE tax breaks to people who buy fuel efficient cars.
-Build MORE REFINERIES (we agree on this…there is a bottleneck in our refinery capabilities)
-Give tax breaks to energy companies that consistently invest in diversifying their energy portfolios and lean in to researching fuel sources.
Without policies like this, we are looking at a real crisis precipitated by our lack of capacity in terms of alternative fuels, lack of infrastructure to provide the energy and a much stronger China, Russia, Middle East and India as they begin to hoard their own energy resources. We will be in a MUCH weaker position in the international community and we will need oil more than ever? It just doesn’t make sense to wait on this. That and the crisis we will face when our government is FORCED to make massive concessions, facing breadlines and riots. We have only started the painful transition and market correction right now. The people as a whole haven’t really felt the pain yet.
This isn’t the same old liberal thinking on this either. That used to be about birds and trees and environmentalism. This is about sound national energy policy that allows us to assert ourselves effectively in the world market of ideas, finances and policy like we do now. For now.
I like you too Troy, but your arguments on this are often intellectually dishonest and naively based on the sanctity of the market versus even limited government intervention. I am not talking about nationalizing our oil market. But sometimes we need a push to get us started. This was true in The Civil War, the Depression, World War II…I mean everyone holds the World War II era as an example of how America can work. The government rationed EVERYTHING during that war and mandated recycling…encouraged everyone to forgo even what some of us view as essential to support the war effort. This insistence that we can do EVERYTHING and fight our current wars(!) war on the cheap in the meanwhile has been insane. We need to come up with a responsible energy policy that looks the future, immediate and down the road, right in the eye and makes sure our people AND corporations are prepared to meet that future.
QUOTE(Troy Hill @ June 28 2008, 05:06 PM)
Are you proposing that we rape the American public by adding $5 in taxes to each gallon, just to punish those who use gasoline?
Nope. You just said that. Not me. Nice try.
QUOTE(Troy Hill @ June 28 2008, 05:06 PM)
You know somthing... the free market is working.
Let’s be clear…the market is correcting itself…not working…at least not for the average American or the G.O.P. wouldn’t be in so much trouble right now. Prices of food skyrocketing, wages falling, unemployment rising and a looming recession? Let’s be honest, the market “working” historically lands hardest on the bottom 20% of our population in terms of income. They have trouble buying food and getting to work. This leads to parents being unable to be present in their children’s lives, increased crime in hard-hit communities and the kind of discord which keeps people from pursuing life, liberty and happiness. The major oil industry players do NOT feel this pain at all. They are enjoying the highest profits ever recorded by any industry in the history of the world. The system demands that the ordinary guy pays through the nose before the oil corporations will ever feel any pain. You seem to be quite willing to throw our working poor under the bus to allow this market to “work.” That’s why the G.O.P. is choking on the aforementioned gopher right now.
QUOTE(Troy Hill @ June 28 2008, 05:06 PM)
Toyota pioneered hybrid technology, bringing mass market hybrid cars to the world…The US Union Auto indrustry is playing catch up. Honda is about to debut it's hydrogen fuel cell car, and the US Union Automakers are playing catch up….TaTa Motors in India is about to begin making the Nano, a car powered by compressed air.
How long is it going to be until the average Joe can afford a Prius? And they still only get 40 miles to the gallon and use a ridiculous amount of energy to produce the actual structure of the car. We’ve had cars capable of doing that for some time now.
How do you liquefy Hydrogen? Oh…yeah…it takes energy…from oil and fossil fuels. More to create hydrogen than to just use the gas. Hmmmm.
How do you compress air? Oh…yeah…it takes energy…from oil and fossil fuels. More to create compressed air than to just use the gas. Hmmmm.
We don’t need more methods of transporting energy that require more energy to create than they provide. Oil is the product of millions of years of compression that stores extraordinary amounts of latent energy in a very small package. We have to find naturally occurring sources of energy that replenish themselves and have promise of producing more energy on balance than they take to create. They are here: geothermal, wind, solar, tidal, tectonic and nuclear. These are enormous forces at our disposal.
I like McCain’s battery idea. I think it’s smart policy and in the right direction because it will allow us to take energy from whatever sources do develop while weaning us off of fossil fuels and deliver it through a beefed up electrical grid. We can increase that infrastructure pretty easily and quickly while we continue to develop new energy sources to feed it.
QUOTE(Troy Hill @ June 28 2008, 05:06 PM)
PS: Bill O would have to run like hell was after him to beat Bill Clinton getting to that closet! wink.gif
PPS: Alcoholism is a disease. By extension, I'd say that addiction to narcotics is probably a disease as well. Aren't we supposed to love and help all of those who are afflicted with such maladies? Doesn't sound like you've got much love and good wishes going to old El Rushbo! Not very liberal of you, my friend. tongue.gif
At least Bill Clinton could seal the deal rather than just writing creepy emails to an intern. You have to appreciate the ability to follow through. As usual, Bill O is all talk. Bill C had the blue dress to prove it. Even our liberal slimy guys are cooler than your conservative slimy guys.
I don’t have good wishes for Rush Limbaugh because he dealt with the whole situation so disingenuously after having spent so much time cracking wise at the expense of addicts and people who really need help in this country. Most of us don’t have cushy resort spa rehabs to help us get off the juice. Most people in this country go to jail when they illegally take drugs and for a LONG time. It’s disingenuous and really ugly. Now, do I feel bad for him as a person? Yeah, I really do and I probably shouldn’t be making joke at his expense personally but I think he and Bill O are being so unbelievably unhelpful to our country right now and have not helped correct the liberal media bias. They have just injected misinformation, bias and MORE cynicism into the system.
) You should make the decisions for your life. I should make the decisions for mine. Politicians should not be allowed to take so much of our money and spend it on national programs that are so very often unnecessary, inefficient attempts to buy votes. Finally, when we know that the consequences of making poor decisions are real and no one will bail us out-- we will- as a whole - be much more likely to do what is right from the start.
I'm an independent so I was able to vote for anyone I wanted. Since all my favorite canidates had already locked up their nominations, I voted on the Dem ticket for Hillary....hoping that it'd be a McCain/Clinton race. Anyone but Obama for me. 