Ok so I was at the zoo today with my son and my husband for mothers day and I saw tomorrow's wanna be wedding photographers EVERYWHERE!!!!! Everyone had there digitals out with their stock lenses and it made me sick!!! Two people had 5ds (I dont even have one) and they had the stock lenses on it and they were set on the automatic and where just throwing it around..... What are cameras really cheap now???? This is making me nervous. I even heard someone say "Man I should be a photographer, look at this pictures." Ok I know I sound really snooty there is nothing wrong stock lenses.... well there is but anyways..... it just made me sick!!!

i think that is kinda harsh actually. there are a lot of people out there who can afford nice digital cameras and, well, they were just at the zoo you know! so they were enjoying themselves, what is the harm in that?

I agree.

Lots of people like "pro-sumer" cameras like 5Ds and D300s. They are cheap and easy to get. Easy to spark the passion for photography.

Doesn't make them wedding photographers.

But, it doesn't mean they won't decide to join OSP and make the plunge either.

All of you folks came from somewhere!

lol, funny thing is, that is actually pretty much how I got my start. I used to go to the zoo and take nice photos of the animals and flowers, etc, and my friends all said the photos should be in national geographic and I ended up shooting a friends wedding because of it. Here I am today, lol.

Pffsh.
Wannabe.

I know, I know. I am actually thinking about upgrading my camera from the disposable cameras I use now....to shooting exclusively with the iPhone.

Me too...
But actually I started doing my own kids, because I wanted nice pics and didn't want to pay a "professional" their prices.
(HaHa... little did I know that I needed thousands of dollars of equipment to get the results I wanted!)

I agree with what all of you said but it just scared me today. It made me feel like I soon photographers will be extinct. I know I know it takes more than just pointing and shooting but I was just venting. I got scared....reality hit hard!

I could buy the best golf clubs on earth- do you think Tiger would get worried...?

*Shrug* When we're on an outing with the kids, I only bring the cheapo lens and the 20D. I guess I look like one of those wanna-bes that make you sick, but I just don't care. My p&s sucks and I don't want to risk damaging the good equipment when I'm dealing with a 3.5 yr old and a 4.5 yr old. Not every situation calls for the best equipment available; the zoo most certainly does not, as we're there every 2-3 weeks. (Though a couple of times a year, I do go sans kids for the purpose of photography, and I do bring better/more gear.)

Well next time I will take it a little easier on them..... I guess we all started somewhere..... geeze, I act like I have been in this business forever. It has only been a year. Man I need a little dose of humility!!

See you would not see a huge group of women with engagement rings on but a bunch of photographers should look like bank!! Where is your DVD instructional video, those killer zoo actions and the workshop schedule? A real pro would be delighted at the turnout and have promo stuff in the gift shop!

As cameras evolve, it will be easier for people to take acceptable photos without having a lot of time invested.

Many people shooting weddings today have never shot film. That's just weird to me.

In a few years, cameras will have enough smarts to be able to take almost perfect exposed pictures before you even realize you wanted the shot. Sony already has a camera that goes back in time to take a shot. Well, not really. But close. It *stops* taking pictures when you hit the shutter release, and then you can choose to keep a ton from the previous few seconds, or just a select few.

If all we do to differentiate ourselves from consumers is our knowledge of how to take good pictures, I believe the near future will be rough for us.

I have good cameras. So it's no wonder I take good pictures.


Eric

i often see people at my weddings who have a better set up than me... it does get me down, btu then i realise that just because they ahve more money than me, doesnt mean they take better pics than me....otherwise the bride and groom would ahve got THEM to take the photos, not me

one thing that REALLY pissed me off once was a ex boyfriend of mine took one look at my 20D (this was about 3 years ago) and went I want one of those and went out and bought it, on a whim, after i worked soooooooo hard to buy one, and i used it as a work tool and he wanted it just for a toy. i think it was more the disposable income, the copycat thing and the whim of buying an expenisve toy that pissed me off more than the actually camera buying.... thinking about in now STILL pisses me off So understand the 'making me feel sick' comment very well....

Just saw an interesting commercial with Ashton Kutcher (its on again as I type this) using the D60 at a wedding with the tag phrase:

I got the shot!

i shot an event yesterday where several folks had dslr's, one had a nikon d40x and two others had rebels (one had a 430ex). they probably got a good number of shots, but obviously the clients valued having someone pro, or else they would have settled for guest shots. those of us who get paid have the combo of the eye, quality lenses, and consistency in technique to pull off stuff untrained enthusiasts won't get unless they seriously delve into learning.

i'll feel intimidated when i can't get the better shots lol

We've all heard "it's not the violin, it's the violinist." That said, I recently had an inquiry from a lady who wanted pictures taken of her daughter for a dance recital brochure. When I got back to her, she said that since she emailed me, a friend of hers had offered to take pictures for them, with an SLR, no less!! Yes, SLRs are becoming more popular and professional photographers should be worried because it has taken business away in some segments. I just attended a local PPA meeting and the presenter, an award winning photographer, stated, "digital is killing us" because the seniors are taking pictures of each other, or their mom's taking their pictures, so there goes potential clients. What do you do to differentiate yourself? How do you educate your clients to see the differrence? Are you offering products that they can't easily get by themselves? Because for the untrained eye, sometimes it's really not that different or simply "good enough." If they can get an 8x10 from the grocery store for $3.00, why should they pay $60??

For the wannabes (me included), are we charging enough? Or are we undercutting the market of those who _need_ to make a living, send kids to college and save for retirement?

Wedding market may be a bit different, and the average photog fees have actually gone up in the past 10 years because of digital. What do you do when Uncle Harry shows up with his Mark III and L lenses and get in your way? Charge up front and tell him politely that the couple is paying good money so you should allow me to get a few good pics. Or thank him for setting the group up for you

I had a lot of fun reading this! You guys gave me the best laugh of the day!

"It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian."

Interesting stats on PDN article.

Great article -- very interesting that photography is not the primary income per household. Guess I can't quit my full-time job until my wife decides she's tired of staying at home raising kids!

Great minds think alike!

Mmmmm Zoo actions..... now you got me thinking!

One thing contributing to this whole thing is the affluence in society. The 5D ain't cheap. I certainly can't afford one. But their are lots of couples who both work good jobs and they can have luxury items. they also drive cars I can't afford and live in houses I can't afford. If I don't upgrade from my 30D soon, I may find that my clients will say, "Well I use to have that one before I moved up to the _____ (insert the latest greatest camera)."

People still ooh and aahh at my camera and lenses, so not everyone is spending all that cash on photo stuff.

What I find interesting about this thread is the two differing opinions:

1. Large numbers of people with high end cameras are going to become photographers in the near future.
2. No worries, it's not the camera that makes a good photographer -- and the consumer will know the difference between real pros and wanna-bes with high end cameras.

There really is no conflict between those two statements.

OSP is a great example of both. How many folks on OSP were hobbyists with no formal training, but took a love of photography and turned it into a business, and then began their formal education of photography? My guess is quite a few did that. Nothing wrong with doing that.

But, for those who say that all of those folks at the zoo with 5Ds etc will NOT become pro -- why not? The next Joe B or Kevin Swan may very easily have been in that bunch.

Will they all be turning pro? I doubt it, but that is where the photogs of tomorrow are going to be coming from.

Cameras come with batteries, instruction manuals, a camera strap, some software, and a lens.

The manual will tell you how to turn it on.

The shutter will fire.

The lens will focus.

The software will let you put your pictures on the Interweb.

Nothing in that box will ever teach you how to see. The only vision most people have is Television.

Remember - Photography calls many and chooses few.

I LOVE the consumers! LOVE LOVE LOVE them. They buy the gear that makes profit that goes back into R&D to bring us amazing gear.

Nothing in the box... Nothing... will teach them to see. Just remember that.

Cheers,
Zack

guns cameras don't shoot people...people shoot people

if you are scared of people with cameras taking your job, you dont seem confident enough to shoot a wedding professionaly.....what do you do when "Uncle Jim" walks in with a MKIII and is shooting behind you at the wedding?

This thread reminds me of Amedeus....

Mozart... the genius gifted with talent who died penniless

Salieri ... the court composer who had technical mastery and knew how to win friends and influence people to get and keep a great job

While I agree with Zach's post above, in the business of wedding photography, the Salieries (those who approach photography as a business -- (i.e. Uncle Bob who always liked photography, got laid off and started shooting with a business attitude) are more likely to retire wealthy from the professional than the Mozarts (The starving artist photogs).



Salieri could hear the genius in Mozart's peices, but could never create music at the same level Mozart did.

But a few Uncle Bobs or Cousin Suzys with their new Nikon D60s will see the Ashton K commercial, and enter the market this year, and the year after that, and the year after that.

There are two things you can do to survive in this business -- discover your inner music -- AND learn how to survive in a cut throat wedding market. We are getting closer to that every year.

So, while you're getting better and better at photography, and learning how to "see" -- don't forget those business seminars!

Last time I checked, 5D was not at all prosumer. It is probally the most used camera amoung fashion, editorial and wedding photographers. Now the Canon Rebel or the 40D...I'd go for that on prosumer.LOLGreat analogy. I think photographers can get a bi beside themselves with camera envy. I have actually heard another photographer say to a second photographer "his lens is bigger than yours". He was reffering to my 70-200 lens. At the end of the day, these are just tools. Sit me behind a Baby Grand piano and you'll see...I'm no Ray Cahrles.p.s. R.I.P Ray Charles

But its available for under $4000.00 -- that seems to be the price cut-off where a vast majority of the consumer market won't go (some of the "boys with toys" will go -- just to have the biggest and baddest -- but not many will fork over that much change for one tool for their hobby!)

1D Mark III on B&H is almost $4,100
5D is almost $2,200
40D is almost $1,200

Just to argue semantics... Canon's 1D line is their "official" Pro camera in 1.3 and full frame versions. Therefore, any thing less than that is also a "consumer" model.

Pro-sumer meaning targeted at both Pro and Consumer markets.

Rebel is the amateur and anything else is their "pro-sumer" line -- meaning it appeals to both consumers and pros

I had a 5D for a while and sold it when I got my Mark III. There is a major difference. Not in image quality -- but in the way the camera performs in my hands. I love that camera!

Me three. And I'm never in the pictures! Whoever said taking pictures of the own kids is easy is not telling the truth...

Look out, here comes Uncle Troy with his Mark III!! So true about the business seminars. Us wannabe's are having a hard enough time with "f/8 and be there" or "sunny16", let along how to run a profitable business...

(btw, I didn't realize avatars have such influence on perception. I mean, those who change their avatars on a fairly regular basis, it really messes me up )

Troy said it first...."the photogs of tomorrow are going to be coming from" the zoo!

With last names like "Swan" and "Jay" (how many other last names from animals can we find?) where else did you think photogs came from.

i really like the way you think, zack!

It's not the camera you use it's the person behind the camera and your own unique personality. You should be selling yourself, that is the one thing clients can't get anywhere else, you.

I'm a photographer first and foremost for the craft and expression of the medium. I'll stand in the Mozart bread line any day of the week. Yes... I want to make a living. I don't want to die broke but I'm a photographer because I have to be a photographer. I can't do anything else and find satisfaction with my life.

Luckily for me I have two boys to feed and I have a nasty competitive streak running through me that when I see the Uncle Bob's show up with better gear, it only pushes me to do better. Luckily most uncle Bob's show up with on camera flash. The day they show up with Pocket Wizards will be the day I hire an assistant to walk around firing their channel all day!

Cheers,
Zack

Brilliant!! I'll be bringing my PW transmitter to the next wedding, as a guest!!

Hmm, I've seen portrait outfits in the mall using PWs too... oh the possibilities!!

Well, I'm a Pelly, which is British slang for a pelican (at least I've seen it used this way).

Of course, the name apparently comes from the French-Canadian name Pelletier - which means fur trader. Maybe that means I shoot photographers!

(With my camera, of course!)

That's a freaking AMAZING idea!

I was shooting Prom photos for my babysitter the other day & ran in to a guy with TONS of requipment... Pocket Wizards, multi-thousands of dollars in lenses & camera bodies, reflectors, etc... I asked if he was local (I always introduce myself if I can without getting in the way of what they are doing - because I like to get to know all the local pros and invite them to our monthly lunches).... we chatted for a while - he totally "just does it for fun" and has a regular day job. I was pretty shocked that someone would invest THAT much money in equipment just for a hobby...

I agree with everything you've said, Zach. I really don't worry about the influx or the affordability of the cameras...

I think I'm in love with you, a little...

The day uncle Bob shows up to one of my weddings with better camera gear is the day I show up at his job and park in his parking space.

Photography and equipment is only a fraction of what we offer our brides. They don't hire us because we have the latest and greatest. Most clients I talk to don't even know what SLR stands for. I still get calls asking if I'm all digital, and some still question the quality of all digital. We sell a luxury service, with luxury products, and an experience to help make her feel like the princess she's always imagined and enhance the romance of the day. First and foremost this is a people business, the artistic and technical aspects are just tools to enhance the service we are really selling.

Edit: One more thought on this. I watch Ace of Cakes on the Food Network. There are a lot of parallels between what they do and what we do. If you've never seen the show, it's about this small bakery in Baltimore, MD that makes some of the coolest cakes. Now anybody can make a cake, and everyone has the tools to do so. But these guys take making cakes to a whole new level. They don't sell cakes they sell art and an experience. It's the same with us. Anyone can go out and buy a camera and take some great shots. But we don't sell photography we sell art and an once in a lifetime experience.

You've never met a redneck with a 4x4 have you?

How about someone with a $30,000 bass boat? You can get a lot of photo stuff for a third of that!

Cheers,
Zack

well said

True, but I suspect that, for a good number of clients, that's "good enough". After all, most of the "10-15 weddings per year" folks in the PDN article aren't "Master of Light" candidates just yet, but they are indeed being hired.

-TM

IMO, comparing being a professional photographer to being a professional Violinist or professional Golfer is a bit contrived. The barrier to entry in photography is far, far lower than that for musicians or golfers, isn't it? I don't think it's the case that it seems that way to me 'cause photographically I'm all that.

-TM

That works two ways... you may find your strobes drained every time you go to hit the shutter.