theGreatDivorce
April 15 2008, 08:29 PM
I'll preface this by saying I don't mind paying extra for the best, if the difference is noticeable. And that I have a tendency to be an Apple fanboy

That said, is a couple 23" ACD's really worth the money over some other higher-end 22-24" LCD's? The Apple displays are pretty old tech, all said and done. I don't want to buy something simply for the name.
Do they hold calibration better, or calibrate truer? Is it safe to assume that if I calibrate my monitors regularly, any good LCD is about as good as another?
I have a 24" iMac now, and the screen is gorgeous ... but I have a Mac Pro on the way, and need something that looks as good and accurate. I'd just rather not pay super high prices unless I need to (like, say, for a LaCie monitor).
Appreciate any input
MeeksDigital
April 15 2008, 10:45 PM
I've heard a lot of people say that the apple displays are actually made by dell... while i'm not 100% sure of that, i do agree that they are in need of an update. however, i own two 23" apple displays (one of which i just bought with my mac pro - running dualies now!) and i love them. worth every penny in my opinion. they calibrate well, hold calibration accurately, they're plenty bright, and they look good. i think dells are ugly personally, but then again, they're made for PCs.... go figure. looks aren't necessarily important.
anyway, it's really up to you. i've been waiting for an ACD update for a while and it has yet to come - i wouldn't really worry about buying one, they're excellent and bulletproof.
yeah, that reminds me. dell displays are plastic. apple's are aluminum. MUCH more robust. I've shipped them across the country in hard equipment cases which have taken a beating - and the displays are perfectly fine.
just some food for thought. good luck!
Chris Humphreys
April 16 2008, 06:19 AM
From what I've heard, it's not that the Cinema Displays are made my Dell, but rather that the internal components are the same and made by the same company (some 3rd party that I can't remember).
I just think the Cinema Display's look that much cooler and when someone comes into my office I'd love for them to see that rather than a Dell. So.... I guess it just comes down to that it's worth it for me!
Damon
April 16 2008, 06:25 AM
I know someone with an Eizo and his color is more consistent than ours with the ACDs.
John + Lovina Arcara
April 16 2008, 06:25 AM
we compared the apple, dell and hp 30" monitors. The Apple monitor I think came in last. Dell was the best followed very closely by hp. Dell has the best contrast ratio, whatever that means. hp and dell do however have the same contrast ratio, which was also as I remember better than apple. AND 1/2 the price. We got the hp, it had more extras that came with it like external speakers and a 4 output usb 2 port
ChadMorgan
April 16 2008, 06:58 AM
There are also a couple Samsung models, the 245T is one of them, I think, that are gorgeous. I believe the 24" is $650, which is a little cheaper than ACD, but gives you a little extra pixel-realty.
Paul@lauraeatonphoto
April 16 2008, 07:06 AM
apple and dell used to have Samsung lcd's inside. This might have changed since I don't keep up on it.
Check for 3 things when shopping for LCD's
contrast ratio: higher number to 1 is the best.
Response time: lower number in milli/micro seconds is best.
Resolution: no brainer.. higher is better
ChadMorgan
April 16 2008, 07:17 AM
Although, if you can find a monitor with great contrast ratio that only has a 3ms response time, don't fret. Those response times are usually a moot issues when it comes to editing photos; response times are most crucial for video and gaming.
Paul@lauraeatonphoto
April 16 2008, 07:35 AM
QUOTE(ChadMorgan @ April 16 2008, 11:17 AM)

Although, if you can find a monitor with great contrast ratio that only has a 3ms response time, don't fret. Those response times are usually a moot issues when it comes to editing photos; response times are most crucial for video and gaming.
Chad thats true but I would want the faster monitor because that would be a higher quality one. The ones with the slower times tend to be the budget model and this is a good way to weed those out.
J Scott
April 16 2008, 07:39 AM
IF you want the best, Eizo is it...and only it. But you'll pay dearly. Best color, and accuracy hands down. You'll pay almost $1k more than anything else comparable though. If you put all the monitors side by side next to the Eizo, there's no comparison really. I wish they'd put the Eizo screens in something as gorgeous as the ACD's Aluminum bodies though.
Andy A.
April 16 2008, 08:43 AM
There are a lot more factors to consider when it comes to LCD panel selection as it's not about just brightness, contrast ratio and response time. For photo editing, we're looking for panels that offer CONSISTENT color and backlighting across the entire panel. Not only that, we need this consistency even at slightly off-center wider viewing angles. We also want the correct brightness (as the overwhelming majority of consumer panels on the market are too bright for color critical applications). Response time is not a factor for viewing photographs and is not an indication of the quality of a graphics monitor (it is important for video editing though). What's more important would be the panels bit depth as what we care about is color. The downside to all this is that when you get serious about an LCD monitor's color consistency and uniformity, prices go sky high. Damon is correct about the quality of Eizo panels. Unfortunately, there's a reason why Eizo's 24" and 30" graphics monitors go for $2300 and $5000, respectively.
theGreatDivorce
April 16 2008, 11:17 AM
Thanks for all the input, guys.
I realize Eizos are the best of the best, but they're just too much $$ for me.
I have been looking at a lot of screens, and many look "good". Some of the HP's, some of the Dell's, obviously the ACD's. Like Andy said though, I'm most concerned about color accuracy. Anyone know how ACD's compare to Dell's and the like for that?
I read somewhere that most Dell's, minus the 30"ers, don't have S-IPS panels?
At this point, I'm thinking dual 23" ACD's are a good option. More horizontal real estate than one 30". Trevor, what are you using to calibrate yours? Spyder2?
Damon
April 16 2008, 11:22 AM
QUOTE(Andy A. @ April 16 2008, 12:43 PM)

Damon is correct
I always love seeing that

We use Monaco Optix XR Pro for calibration. It's now called the Eye-One Display 2.
MeeksDigital
April 16 2008, 12:08 PM
QUOTE(theGreatDivorce @ April 16 2008, 12:17 PM)

I read somewhere that most Dell's, minus the 30"ers, don't have S-IPS panels?
At this point, I'm thinking dual 23" ACD's are a good option. More horizontal real estate than one 30". Trevor, what are you using to calibrate yours? Spyder2?
Excellent choice on dual 23" ACDs. I use a Spyder2 Pro. May consider selling it if you don't have one... I love it but I am a tech nut and I love the idea of getting a Spyder3. Either way, Spyder2Pro is a great choice. Got mine on amazon.com for ~$170
PS don't forget to order your ACDs on the apple store online and use the educational pricing! saves a ton.
Dmitri Markine
April 16 2008, 12:15 PM
QUOTE(theGreatDivorce @ April 16 2008, 03:17 PM)

Thanks for all the input, guys.
I realize Eizos are the best of the best, but they're just too much $ for me.
I have been looking at a lot of screens, and many look "good". Some of the HP's, some of the Dell's, obviously the ACD's. Like Andy said though, I'm most concerned about color accuracy. Anyone know how ACD's compare to Dell's and the like for that?
I read somewhere that most Dell's, minus the 30"ers, don't have S-IPS panels?
At this point, I'm thinking dual 23" ACD's are a good option. More horizontal real estate than one 30". Trevor, what are you using to calibrate yours? Spyder2?
I had 2 22" and about 2 years ago got 1 30" from Dell. For me,it's much more convenient. One of the best decision I've made. Spyder 2 works just fine with it.
Lindsey
April 16 2008, 12:56 PM
According to an Apple Rep my husband is friends with, ACD's have something called "WASP Certification" or something like that-- the same thing Eizo Displays have. It's basically what others have said about having CONSISTENT color over time-- not having to recalibrate every week, and not having it look slightly different after each calibration, etc. The Apple Rep pointed out that all the other monitors that have that are wayyy more expensive, like the Eizo's, but I wish they'd make that point more clear so it didn't seem like they were charging so much just because of the pretty aluminum case
MeeksDigital
April 16 2008, 01:26 PM
QUOTE(Lindsey @ April 16 2008, 01:56 PM)

According to an Apple Rep my husband is friends with, ACD's have something called "WASP Certification" or something like that-- the same thing Eizo Displays have. It's basically what others have said about having CONSISTENT color over time-- not having to recalibrate every week, and not having it look slightly different after each calibration, etc. The Apple Rep pointed out that all the other monitors that have that are wayyy more expensive, like the Eizo's, but I wish they'd make that point more clear so it didn't seem like they were charging so much just because of the pretty aluminum case

great information linsey - i agree, i wish they'd make that more clear. so many people trash the ACDs for being expensive, it's really sad because they really are excellent screens.
Andy A.
April 16 2008, 01:27 PM
QUOTE(theGreatDivorce @ April 16 2008, 11:17 AM)

Thanks for all the input, guys.
I realize Eizos are the best of the best, but they're just too much $ for me.
For my own purposes, I'll settle for monitors that can be calibrated to be very close to the printed results I get from my lab. The ACD's are fine in that respect. I read somewhere that a newer generation of LCD backlit ACD's were coming out. Anyone know about that?
Also, for those that are interested in the Dell 30", I just found this:
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/dell_ultrasharp_3008wfp
CGphotography
April 16 2008, 01:33 PM
QUOTE(MeeksDigital @ April 15 2008, 11:45 PM)

I've heard a lot of people say that the apple displays are actually made by dell... while i'm not 100% sure of that, i do agree that they are in need of an update. however, i own two 23" apple displays (one of which i just bought with my mac pro - running dualies now!) and i love them. worth every penny in my opinion. they calibrate well, hold calibration accurately, they're plenty bright, and they look good. i think dells are ugly personally, but then again, they're made for PCs.... go figure. looks aren't necessarily important.
anyway, it's really up to you. i've been waiting for an ACD update for a while and it has yet to come - i wouldn't really worry about buying one, they're excellent and bulletproof.
yeah, that reminds me. dell displays are plastic. apple's are aluminum. MUCH more robust. I've shipped them across the country in hard equipment cases which have taken a beating - and the displays are perfectly fine.
just some food for thought. good luck!
I'm a big Apple fan (never owned a PC) with a fairly new Mac Pro. I really wanted to add an ACD, but they are a little tired and for all the Mac people who love 'em, there appears to be an unusually high number who have had serious trouble (check out the Apple Discussion forums). So, after much research and even returning a highly touted NEC model, I ended up with a
Dell 2707 Ultrasharp Widescreen. It's a gorgeous 27" brushed metal encased flat panel on a solid black glass base that will not tip or move out of place. The screen is beautiful and I keep it calibrated with an eye-one display 2. The only thing I didn't like was the shiny Dell logo on the front, so I covered it with my own logo. The monitor is so impressive that everyone who comes into my office immediately takes notice and comments.
Katherine
April 16 2008, 02:19 PM
QUOTE(CGphotography @ April 16 2008, 01:33 PM)

So, after much research and even returning a highly touted NEC model, I ended up with a
Dell 2707 Ultrasharp Widescreen. It's a gorgeous 27" brushed metal encased flat panel on a solid black glass base that will not tip or move out of place. The screen is beautiful and I keep it calibrated with an eye-one display 2. The only thing I didn't like was the shiny Dell logo on the front, so I covered it with my own logo. The monitor is so impressive that everyone who comes into my office immediately takes notice and comments.
You need to work for them part time cuz you just sold me one!

I've been debating about which model to get for weeks! Thanks Christopher!
jdear
April 16 2008, 02:26 PM
Id rather an eizo anyday over an Apple ACD. I would rather have a smaller screen than a huge one that isnt as good. Eizo has a 5 year warranty - doubt ACD has that - even if you add an applecare plan. 5 years for a monitor is HUGE - especially if its running most of the day - every day!
From what I have seen with ACD's in action - is they don't seem to have even illumination across the whole panel - Ive seen many complain that they are prone to shift their colours after about a years operation.
quote from an ACD user:
QUOTE
The difference between the two monitors is this: the Apple display (which I own) must be color adjusted in the video card. The Eizo display (which I wish I owned) can be color adjusted in the monitor itself.
By adjusted, what I mean is this: let's say that the color calibration software detects that your monitor is displaying grays with a very slight red cast. The software needs to turn down the red.
On the Apple monitor, it must do this by loading the video card with a Color Look Up Table (C-LUT) that slightly tones down the reds. So, while green and blue run from 0 through 255, red might run only from 0 through 250 to compensate for the monitor's red tint.
So there's the problem - you've just lost 5 levels of red. The issue is that the video card C- LUT is only 8 bits, so even slight adjustments of the tones cause a not-insignificant loss of levels.
The Eizo, on the other hand, has a 10-bit C-LUT built right into the monitor itself. So the 8-bit C-LUT can preserve all your video card levels, while the tone compensation is done by adjusting the 10-bit table in the monitor. 10 bits means 1,024 levels, so the relative loss of levels is much less than with the 8-bit (255 levels) video card C-LUT.
It's not that the Apple display won't show you accurate colors. It can, with the right software and hardware calibration system. The problem is the loss of tonal range as the adjustments are made to show you accurate colors. The Eizo has a much smaller loss of range.
If accuracy and wide tonality are essential and you can afford it, the Eizo offers more. Whether you can see the difference is another thing entirely. I imagine you would on images with lots of blue sky or skin tones.
Jonathan
Andrew Merefield
April 17 2008, 03:03 PM
I agree with the Eizo, mine was perfect straight out of the box and hardly shifts calibration at all (even if I am lazy and don't calibrate it as often as I should). If you are looking at two monitors make one an Eizo and do all of your critical colour on it.
In the end we all buy (or want to but) L series glass because we are professionals and need top quality tools. These days a monitor is just as important a tool as your lenses.
Anne
April 17 2008, 03:30 PM
I had a friend who cheaped out and got two dells instead of the apples based on the idea that "it's all the same on the inside" - he had them in a side-by-side set up and when spanning one white document across the two screens, noticed a huge calibration difference and it wasn't something he could fix with a few display tweaks... it was completely different. He had to return one of them to Dell and it was a big hassle. He got a second Dell and the same thing happened. He's having a hard time getting Dell to take the second monitor back.
So... if you don't need it to be consistent from screen to screen.. go for it! If you need consistency on two screens side-by-side, think twice before buying.
theGreatDivorce
April 18 2008, 12:26 AM
Bah. Y'all are making this hard

But thanks!
Are the ACD's really that inferior to the Eizo's?
For some reason, I don't mind throwing down for every f/1.2-1.4 lens I can find, but spending a lot on a monitor just makes me cringe. Totally irrational, since I spend a bajillion hours staring at a monitor.
Michael Andrews
April 24 2008, 02:22 PM
I wanted to bump this thread because I posted a related thread
here.
Trevor was cool to point this one out, and I'm sure I'll be contacting him with questions.
I'd just like some more input on the issue.
Thanks!
Michael
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