I have searched before asking this...but what style of album do you find sells the very best? Flushmount, matted, coffee table, etc? I am anxiously awaiting my Graphi Studio sample I ordered at WPPI! Can't wait to see it.

Any thoughts would be appreciated

The album you sell best will often be the one you show the most.

In that sense, show what suits your tastes and style, and that fits your price and market.

THANKS Bruce! I see what you mean...

Hey, do I REALLY need InDesign?

I personally show and sell all the albums you have mentioned. Some clients are not crazy about the flush mount albums and prefer the look and feel of a traditional matted album like zookbinders makes.

I personally feel that you shouldn't limit your product offering to one style of album.

Thanks for the thoughts I haven't used Zookbinders..I will check them out.

I really and truly mean no offense, Lisa, but 9 out of 10 posts I read by you are asking other people to tell you what to do.

There's no magic formula or secret insight anyone here on OSP has to offer you. We don't know if you need InDesign or what album style you should go with, what lenses to get, etc. because we are not you. What works for you is not what works for me. The kind of questions that have been asked are so general that they imply a certain lack of trust in yourself and even a sense of laziness -- if, for example, you had done your homework by reading reviews and summaries online about InDesign (very easy to do, it would probably take about an hour) versus the other options out there, you wouldn't need to ask a stranger on the Internet to tell you whether to purchase it or not. If that sounds harsh, it's because I believe that candor is the best kind of pedagogy we have to offer. If you have a question, rely on your own instincts and resources to solve it first, then use your own conviction to try to make the decision that is right for your business. If after those two steps you still feel lost, post your specific concerns and we'll try to help.

Hope, geez, relax!

OSP is a community of fellow photographers, and many of us help each other out with all sorts of things. And it's an open community, so in a sense, it's open for any and all inquiries and exchanges of info. Lisa simply asked the community for input ... pretty simple request.

Please take it easy. It's very difficult sometimes to "read" someone's intent on a forum.

Honestly, for me, it's not necessarily what album would sell the best as most brides hire based on my style, not really the album itself. My decisions are made based on quality and ease of ordering (including turn around time and customer service). Other than that, most albums pretty much mush together and most brides can't really notice a difference (IMO).

Zookbinders is a safe option (I use this). For an upgrade from this, Leather Craftsman is nice as well.

I only order Asukas when I have to because their ordering process is mind-boggling tedious.

I've never dealt with Graphi because I've heard negative things about their service and I just don't have the patience for that.

For something more unique, La Vie albums are very cool.

Finao has some great, contemporary covers - acrylic, fabrics, etc.

Also, although Hope was a little harsh, it would be nice to know what type of album you're leaning toward. Or at least your photography style so that we can help you determine what album choices would be good for you. There's so many album choices out there and with the vast difference in everyone's sales abilities, it's hard to determine why one album would sell over the other.

Hope, I truly do not use OSP as a cure for laziness, but truly a source of knowledge. Weddings are something I am new at, not new to photography, but to weddings, so I feel it was an ok question to ask. But thank you for your thoughts.Karen, thanks for the info on the companies. I was thinking of Graphi after seeing them at WPPI, but it is good to hear some input. I really want to offer great quality that is simple in design. Simple only b/c that is what I like and seems to stand the test of time. I guess what I mean by simple, is not too busy. I am going to order a sample from Zookbinders as I have seen many great comments. Again, thanks!Much appreciated Bruce. I kinda have a bit of a tough skin, so I didn't take the response too bad, the only thing that bothers me is that I would be perceived as lazy. But, again, I love OSP and appreciate ALL comments.

Wow...Hope, I do believe that you meant no offense, but what harm is there in asking? She's not asking us to make a decision for her, but rather for our opinions.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WELL SAID !!!!!!! TOOK THE WORDS RIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH, MY JAW FELL OPEN WHEN I READ HER RESPONSE !!!!!

Thank you for your comment. I like to participate as much as I like to ask. This is the one forum where I feel nearly everyone is welcomed and supported. I have learned SO much from everyone and I would like to do nothing more than help to pass that knowledge on:) When I went to WPPI I was flat out overwhelmed by album choices! Wow. My question was a tad generic and I apologize, I will add more specifics after I review a few of the suggestions. Thanks again

NO need for an apology from you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, now I'm afraid to ask questions, I don't need anyone jumping all over me for that.

Guess that is sorta how I felt...walked away with my tail between my legs!

Yeah there is no need for that, atleast not on here !!!!!!!!!

Wow! It's really hard to ask questions, but I hope you continue to ask!


I love Zookbinders matted albums... I think you should show the albums you love the most and they will sell.

Thank you very much! I have found one common denominator in the responses...show what I love and they will sell Now, just to find the love! I have a pretty good idea of what I don't want to offer. Sometimes I think just asking questions makes for some really great brainstorming and fresh ideas...not always, but it is a great way for everyone to share experiences. I appreciate the blog luv

Yes that is why we are all here, for advice and to share experiences !!!!!!!!!! So continue the questions, there always has to be a bad apple somewhere.

Thank you-Thank you! Careful what you ask for, I have an active brain and I might just scare everyone away! j/k.

Well I dont have advice on albums, I'm looking into them also. That is why I came to this post and then I got into what I thought was a joke at first, But whatever..........I need to stop !!!!!!!! Anyway I think you got some good advice from others and I will look into them also. So THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION !!!!!!!!!!!! Take care

Sure thing. And as I get info, I will be sure to post my experiences. I am getting ready to order a few studio samples. I have one coming from Graphi, but I am ordering from two others as well...I will let you know!

COOL, THANKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey Lisa! Ask TONS of questions, PLEASE! I find that I am often wondering about the same things others are, and questions never hurt anyone, now did they?

May I suggest that you give Kiss Books a try? That is, if you are interested in a good flush mount album. I really adore them. And the cutomer service could not possibly be any better!

Good luck with your album search. It really can be so overwhelming.

I really love VisionArt (www.visionartbook.com) for storybook albums. My clients love them and think they are so unique. However, I am a little concerned that these types of books may become just a fad, so I include those books as part of every wedding package, dubbing it a Mint & Sage Favorites Book. I pick the photos and use InDesign to quickly layout the images into a standard spread. Because Vision Art is so fast, I can get these books back shortly after the client returns from their honeymoon and then they have a really cool book to show to all of their friends.

So, for the "heirloom album", I love Cypress Albums, La-Vie (though still a little more modern) and Queensberry. I also think that Finao has some really great items and is fairly cost effective for the budget conscious bride. So, that's my take on it. And, I've looked at them all, in depth. I love the customer service at Cypress and Vision Art. Queensberry, IMHO, is the creme' de la creme' and pricey, but clients love those books as well. La-Vie is a great wow factor. Also, I've recently discovered Couture Book, however, haven't used them yet or experienced any customer service, so no thoughts on that. And, I get vendor books from Photo Book Press.

Take my thoughts with a grain of salt and find what fits your style and the price point for the market you're serving. However, if there is nothing else you take away from my thoughts, please, please, please, DO NOT use Art Leather.

Lisa, you mentioned having a good idea of what you don't like, so let's start there. What don't you like in an album?

Thank you Melanie...I have been at this computer most of the day reading and reading all the options out there!!!! HOLY COW it is overwhelming. I really liked Kiss at WPPI. I am going to order a sample from there.

I noticed Finao has self mount albums...does anyone like that option? How do they turn out?

THANKS for the in-depth response. I do have a question about InDesign. Do you find that you use this for all the different albums? I am trying to reduce the amount of time in PS and I presume InDesign makes life easier? I am going to be doing an album for a Bar Mitzvah here soon and I am trying to decide which one I want to use. I have seen the comments about Art Leather and so I will definitely stay clear:) The Queensberry albums were always being looked at at WPPI. I could barely get a hand in to grab one. They are gorgeous! Do you find that every album requires a new design by you or do you already have something set up that makes it somewhat simple? Bruce, even though I like the latest stuff, I find that I like simple. So some of the albums I saw at WPPI didn't appeal to me because they were too busy. But saying that, I also find that I am not in love with the super traditional matted look with gold tabs. Am I explaining that right? I did see differences in simple which makes simple a bit more confusing . Simple doesn't necessarily mean less quality. The simple layouts with the right finish and book cover makes a yummy album. I do realize that I need to offer a variety that fits different budgets, so I am writing down all the albums I do like and then will go from there.My response ended up in the other post section...oh, why did the older version of scrolling down through posts go away?

Lisa,

I only skimmed through the responses, but have you looked into Cypress or Couture?

Your explanation sounds a lot like mine - and I like those. I also like the matted style album that capri offers.

I was overwhelmed a tad bit at WPPI too.
I have been using all types of albums for the last few years and this year my goal was to streamline my album choice ... actualy (and I might get some critisim for this) I will now only be offering ONE album choice.
Couture Book!

I had been offering Seldex matted albums, Graphi and Sequoia flush mounts and a few other no name brands.
It was all SO cofusing to me and my clients and I really felt like none of these albums really represented my photography the way I wanted it to be shown.

I will still use Sequoia albums for vendors, but Couture books are it for me! I am in love with all the styles and papers... they are scruptious!! And I love that I can offer my clients 100+pages albums for almost the same price as a Graphi or Sequoia 20-30 page album.

But I think the advice about selling what YOU love really is key.
Your clients are going to trust your eye and opinion about what albums will showcase your work/thier wedding images best.
I am sure you will have some clients who have a specific style in mind, but even with those couples, I think there is always wiggle room.

Good luck in your search and I wold love to hear what albums really work best for you!

I use InDesign for all of my album design, including matted Cypress books because it helps to visualize the layout. I always start my album design by using a pre-existing layout and altering it to something completely different. That seems to save me time. I'm not using a template, but I am using something to start from and then adjusting image sizes and overall layout based on the album. With VisionArt, you can't design the cover in InDesign, so I used Photoshop for that, but that's no big deal.

Lisa, you're still really not offering much information about what you are looking for beyond simplicity and not busy. Almost evey album maker offers a simpler choice in covers and pages, and as far as the design, well, that's usually more up to you. If you are the one designing the pages for a flushmount album, that design can be as simple as you want it to be.

I understand what you are stating about the old-style traditional matted albums, but most of the matted albums these days are very different than those. Zookbinders makes a very simple matted album, and they are beautiful. Queensberry has outstanding custom matted books. My favorite is the 700 Series matted book by Leather Craftsmen. Not sure if it get's any simpler than that while retaining elegance and fine art appeal. Well, except maybe the 600 Series which is one image per spread. Simply gorgeous!

But if you really want to narrow this down and get some pinpoint suggestions, I have to have more info on what specifically you are looking for.

if you want simple, KISS is the way to go. they're beautiful books, the quality and customer service are EGGCELLENT and besides the books being beautiful themselves, design is of course completely up to you. oh, and KISS is run by fellow OSPers :-)

Sarah, I think that is just great! I am finding out that the advice I am getting (or anyone else that reads this ) is that selling what you really love and what represents your style is what will make you YOU!!! Ok, enough on the You's right? haha. But I presume it is much like photography. I show what I love to shoot. I hope to get clients from showing the work I love to do. Now, that does not mean that I won't do a needed traditional shot, but an overall style is what I want to convey. WPPI was album overload. My brain just could not take it all in. I will check out these albums, thanks so much for your thoughts!

This has all been helpful and I hope to others as well

Jill, Sarah just recommended Couture as well. I think I need to check them out! I just love simple elegance! I found a quote in one of my photography magazines and it pretty much summed it up.

"Albums should be simple & allow the photography to speak for itself. Make it ALL about the images. It is harder to be simple than it is to add a lot of bells and whistles. (holy cow to I agree) Wedding albums shouldn't be too fashionable. They need to look great 50 years from now."

I know this is not a style for everyone but that is why we have so many amazing photographers to choose from. But Bruce, remember when I was trying to describe what I wanted..well, that quote describes it so well. Now where I needed help from here was what album best fits that description. I see now that I should have given a better description up front to get what I was looking for.

You guys are the best!

I posted something under Jill's response. I think part of what I am struggling with Bruce is that I have not sampled enough album companies to be able to ask specifics. Maybe this is a question that can only be answered by good ol' trial and error? I am putting together an album for guests to sign in at a clients Bar Mitzvah. I am working with Dustin's AWESOME templates and I am now struggling to decide which company to go with. Really, I have gotten so much information from the responses so far that I am quickly finding out what companies I want to try. I am also going to each of their websites and reading in detail about each album and I think I am now crosseyed I am going to go ahead and order some samples and I will be back to add more info when they come in. I know there were others on here looking for the same advice, so I will add my 2 cents when I can. I made note of the albums you listed above. THANKS!Thank you! I must say that I was uber impressed with their albums at WPPI. Plus their branding truly works! Keep it simple!!! Oh, what templates do you use to design yours? Did you make your own? I wonder if Dustin's templates will work for these.eta: I just read through their layout info and I think those templates will work! COOL! I like how they say "a page is a page". No funky layout requirements.

lisa, get Kevin Swan's album design video.... it's WAYYY worth it. You'll be blasting through album design and creating your own "templates" in no time at all. i highly suggest using indesign and not photoshop to design, but photoshop will work if that's all you've got... just takes more time.

I was offering a plethora of album types - from different vendors - and am now phasing a lot of them out. My personal preference is the flushmount because you can easily make a 2 page spread with minimal "gutter" interruption. I am currently offering the VisionArt and KISS books to my clients and am keeping the Asuka books (2 sizes only) for those brides who must have that style of book. I prefer to show my work in a flushmount album though. I have found that the quality and customer service and AMAZINGLY FAST delivery time of Vision Art and KISS is simply awesome. I LOVE both of those companies - - they are getting it RIGHT! I only wish that KISS had an animal friendly cover option.

I have been looking into Couture books and think they look AMAZING!!! I am reluctant to buy one because of some of the reviews posted here. I still may get one anyway just to try them out because they are so beautiful.

I am also looking at Forbeyon books as another flushmount option because of the variety of cover styles and materials (oh yeah, and cost).

oh yeah...and in my little opinion - for what it's worth - I think that the old matted albums look really, really old fashioned (don't hate me). I just think 70's 80's when I see one.

JaNae, I truly only want to offer a couple of styles as well. I am finding that my clients LOVE simplicity. That is how I designed my portrait pricing, no real collections, just price point discounts and it is much easier for them. They like NOT having so many choices. I find the more choices I give the more they begin to 'shut down'. SO, I too feel I will offer just my two favorites and then tailor them to each client. I haven't heard of Forbeyon before...I will look at their site. Where is that video and does it go with InDesign? Am I seeing the cost of InDesign right...the cost of Photoshop? If it is worth it, I would definitely consider;)

It's worth it. But you should have bought the suite- much more cost effective. That being said, you may be able to upgrade to the suite - call adobe and ask!

Kevin's video does cover InDesign, and provides tons of little hints and tricks, basically should get you off and running with very little indesign experience needed.

But seriously, call adobe and ask them if you can upgrade your PS CS3 to a copy of CS3 Design Standard, which will contain Photoshop, Indesign, Bridge, Acrobat Pro, and Illustrator. You'll really enjoy the benefits of all of those programs working together.

Bruce nailed it when he said they'll buy what you show them. Last year, I sold over $130,000 of KISS Books to only 26 brides. Of course, all I ever showed them were KISS Books, so that's all they ever asked for.If you're new, I'd recommend keeping things very simple. Find a book you're stoked about and only offer that. The last things brides need at the end of the day is more freaking choices! hahahah. My clients get to make the big decisions like "what color of leather do you want?", and "would you like that in a 10-inch or 12-inch size?"

Of course, I've been accused of being simple-minded...

$.02

BTW: on the software side, you may investigate the newly revamped Photojunction (http://www.photojunction.com). It's designed for photographers, and may be a touch easier to get your head around than something like InDesign.Whatever works for joo!:)

This is music to my ears!!!! LOVE SIMPLE and I completely agree with choices. Once I offered a client many choices thinking that was a really good thing to do...I saw her face and could feel her getting overwhelmed and then I thought about how I like things. That changed how I worked with my clients. Keeping it simple is where I want to be. Simple done right is elegant and it seems that KISS has achieved that! whoo hoo!
Thanks for the tip about Photojunction, I will check them out.

Hope, I'm not sure how you presume to speak for everyone here. The whole point of OSP, to me, is to be an open source for photographers. If you read David Jay's early posts, it's very clear that he wanted to create an environment where photographers help other photographers.

We shouldn't be brow-beating someone who is asking a relevant question. I've asked a lot of questions here and my business is thriving because of help from my peers. I don't think there's any shame in that.

Hey Lisa,
I have a great PDF of the Couture Book line if you are interested. I would be more than happy to email it to you.
Dave at Couture sent me an email version of their brochure, one with pricing one without, which has been a very good reference for getting to know and understand ALL the fabulous albim lines Couture Book has to offer.

Plus there are more choice in the PDF than the website.
I am SO in love with Couture!

Shane, if there is one thing I LOVE is that my questions help others as well and vice versa. I get help by others asking. I know sometimes it is tough to ask questions when it seems we should already know the answer because we are in business as photographers, but there is always so much more to learn. I love OSP and appreciate all the help I get.I would LOVE that Sarah!

Just sent it your way to the email address I found on your website.
Let me know if it comes through ok.

Sarah

Kevin,

This is one reason I am so completely in love with you! You could have totally sold yourself but you pointed her in another direction. That is very cool! Thanks for all of the great advice you share with us! As soon as I can finish editing (ugh!) my first wedding of the year I am going to try to design my very first KISS book. The Bride was incredible and I KNOW she will rave about it!!! Thanks again,

Detra
Matt 19:26

PS I am so going to charge to outsource editing on my next weddings!!!

BTW: on the software side, you may investigate the newly revamped Photojunction (http://www.photojunction.com). It's designed for photographers, and may be a touch easier to get your head around than something like InDesign.Whatever works for joo!:)
[/quote]

Thanks, girl!

BTW, we're down with the new Photo Junction. It's rockin'. And, as soon as we can get some legal documents ironed out, you'll have all your KISS templates right inside PJ! Expect the official announcement any day.

Let me know if I can help you out with anything on the editing side.. you can fire over spreads to me (kevin at kiss wedding books dot com) and I'd be happy to comment.

K

OK. I skipped FF and bought PJ. I'm freaking out a little, so if I can't work it watch out Kevin! Your email box will be full, LOL. Too great an offer to pass on. Thanks again!!!

I am curious about the couture books. They look cool but everyone has had bad experience with quality. I know newer companies sometimes have issues and need to work them out, has the quality issues been worked out. I emailed them to get pricing info without any response. Anyone have more info on the company...it is kind of a mystery looking at the website.ThanksJenniferp.s. Thanks to all of those that ask questions...I read a lot through others questions when I have them and it helps me a lot. I understand some people have hours everyday to sit on blogs and forums and that is awesome wish I had an extra 4 hours a day. The beauty of osp is that there really is room for all types and some of us use it at a reasource. I only recently started posting and I am real selective when I do. I notice there are some people that post on every single posting, which is good too they are sharing their knowledge. Good for all of us for making this an awesome forum! I have learned so much and met some wonderful people and friends through the forum and have never posted a picture. It has really been a bright spot in my life. So all those who have the guts to ask...keep on asking!Hi Kevin...even though you claim to leave mystery voicemails that don't exist:) I'm still leaning towards giving you all a try. Has the templates come through. My husband currently uses pj and to be honest we don't like it all that much and are thinking of switching to in design. What are some advantages to pj over in design, in your opinion if I can ask? Also are you all going to be offering a bigger variety of album covers in the near future...to be honest that is the one thing holding us back.ThanksJennifer

As this poster says, LaVie are VERY cool. And guess what, they do the design work!!! Just send off the images in order, nominating the featured ones, and it all comes back beautifully put together.

I think they are awesome!

I also want to say that OSP is here as a place to turn for advice, inspiration, etc. That's what a forum is, isn't it?

Keep asking questions, because although you will get answers, many other people will also see the answers, and we all benefit in the end.

Hugh