I just had a new logo made by the Fabulous Jacob Oldenkamp

Please help me decide which one looks the best....I chose the second font

#1





#2

that is really nice denise.

Jacob did it!!!!

Both are nice, but I love #1.

Both are awesome, but I like the font on #1. Congrats!!

I reckon both are hot, but I prefer the second one, the typography works better together in my opinion

That looks really awesome. But...I think it looks more like your name placed on a really cool background than a logo.

OK. People normally don't like this, but I'm gonna be honest. The font in number 2 is obviously the one Liana Lehman uses, so that may be an unwise choice. I'll react to the first one (most of what I'm saying will be relevant to both)

It's not a logo.

The filagree clipart and background texture are things that are artistic elements that you've got put around some type. This doesn't make it a logo. Consider:

a) Logos should work at the size of a quarter or smaller.
b) Lobos should be simple and able to be used on objects like hats, cups, pens, shirts, whatever.
c) Logos should work cleanly in black and white (no grays even) if required for things like faxing.

Some other issues I have with it:

The filagree is pretty now, but it's already on its way out. Your logo will be quickly dated.

Why is your last name slightly larger/taller than the first name? It looks like a mistake.

I know it's popular to mix fonts, and he's chosen common ones like Garamond bold and Avante Guard light, but in this case, I don't see much of a reason or a relationship between them. Your last name feels weak and too thin. Reduced to something small, it will be nearly illegible.

It's non-vector, which means you won't be able to scale it should you need it large--it will be pixelated and blurry.

Anyway, I know people don't like this stuff, but I figured I'd put it up there in an effort to help and hopefully give you some things to think about before you move forward with a relatively important decision for your brand.

$.02

I like the second one because it is cleaner. I don't really like the different font together. I would make your name just a touch smaller though. But I think it's very pretty and I don't think it will go "out" anytime soon

Thanks, really great insight, the font on the second one is "mono lisa font solid" font in MS word, had no idea that Liana Lehman uses it......but I don't understand why there would
be a problem if I use it......

The problem lies in that Liana has a lot of visibility and, as such, people might think you were trying to capitalize on using a font (that has a very particular and recognizable style) she's made relatively synonymous with her name. Even if it's not true, do you want to risk it happening? There are tens of thousands of fonts, it should be relatively easy to find something that doesn't borrow from someone else's. But, that being said, no one can trademark a font. I would personally want to avoid ruffling any feathers or looking like a knock-off.

For the curious, Mono Lisa is just a new spin on an old font from the late 20s. The original style was done by a famous designer, Albert Auspurg, who gave us several other fonts still in use. It's included in Word, but it's not made by Microsoft.

Another problem: the letters need to be kerned. If you're designing type for your brand, you never let the computer determine how close letters should be together; that's fine for common text, but not for your logotype. Each letter should be manually seated next to the other in a proper way that's pleasing, close, but not touching.This is all design 101 stuff, but most people in this industry fail to pay attention to 101.

I LOVE the colors, but I wish that there was one more option, with the font of the name the same (like the second), but with a different font that is just a touch bigger

Beautiful logo, though.

When I saw your 2nd logo, the 1st thing I thought of was Liana.. so if you want to market for her, go for it! :-) I did not think you were capitalizing on her -- it just reminded me of her. She did a brilliant job of making people think of her with that font.

I missed that class, design 101

Thanks...that's really something to think about, when we posted the font back in July
for our Studio we showed several fonts here that we were interested in using for our Studio Window, no one even brought up the fact that someone else was using that
font as well, we went with that font style......

Oy vey......now I have heartburn

Yeah....I'm gonna go with the same font style's, but with design #1

Yes...that could be a problem....thanks for pointing that out guys!!!! I don't want to make
mistakes like that in my business.....

Well, YOU may have missed the class, but if you're having someone help you as a designer, these are things they should be helping you understand. People that have been around here a while know that I usually recommend (sometimes forcefully) that photographers DO NOT design their own logos/brands/websites/cards/whatever. Just because you can take photos doesn't mean you understand design (back to the 101 thing... there are actually rules in design, and lots of them are there for good reasons! Hahah).

Just remember you're working on something that will reflect your company. If you want people to associate you with amateur, then bring in amateurs to help you with your brand. If you want your image to be professional, I'd hire a professional. I know that's cold, but it's also true. The prices you can charge, the weddings you book, in some measure are determined by how you present your business. Your logo/website/cards, etc. are part of that presentation. The work done above is mediocre and your prospects will pick up on that--even if not consciously.

I know everyone will jump up and down because I categorically defined someone's "art" as mediocre. Sorry, but this stuff can be quantified and, as I said, there are rules--most of which have not been followed. The rules are what make graphic design pleasing and effective. If you break them, you better be some kind of genius or someone with a tremendous amount of experience. This stuff matters; otherwise advertising agencies wouldn't make millions of dollars doing it. You can choose to ignore it, most do, but a poor brand will hurt your business.

I know... I'm a killjoy. I'm old. I'm angry. etc. But I also built a brand that billed over $150k in weddings my first year in the industry (2004). It's not because I could shoot (believe me! hahaha), it's because I knew how to build a brand; it's what I did for a living for many years.

I'm not trying to pick on you, it's just that yours was the most recent in a string of very similar posts and I happened to have time to respond to it today. While I love the sense of community on OSP, sometimes I feel like we all just pat each other on the back so much that none of us really grow. So, when someone asks my opinion of a logo (something that I think matters when positioning your company), I try to treat it like I would if I was still in advertising. Back then, people paid me a lot of money to be this cruel... hahah.

$.02 (or less, as the case may be)
K

I definitely picked up on this on Tuesday. Based on how early I get to bed, you could probably make a valid argument that I'm MUCH older than you.

Actually, I'm finding your honest posts quite refreshing. When I get my logo done, I'll definitely be asking your opinion on it.

And who would you recommend?

Can't wait to hear you speak at OSPW2........ should be interesting.

Well since its the logo I designed that Kevin seems to be eloquently bashing, I figured I should throw in my two cents. Firstly I don't appreciate being called "amateur" I have been working in marketing and advertising for the past 8 years. I design billboards, print ads, and do branding. I have worked in Print, multimedia, television and have lots of people that like the work that I do. Like anything, everything is subjective. Just because you like a picture, a logo, a company brand, doesn't mean I will. I don't appreciate your comments Kevin, lots of us work very very very hard and can't say "look at me, I made 150K in my first year cause I'm a marketing legend" but that doesn't mean we don't work long hours, and take pride in what we do. My question to you, when people send in there album designs to KISS, do you sit there and bash their "amateur" design work? Obviously not outwardly cause that sure would hurt the bottom line wouldn't it.

Sorry for the rant everyone.

I think Jacob did a great job, and just for the record it's me that picked that font that Liana uses, Jacob suggested a different font, so I am going with the font he suggested...
Other people like the work that Jacob did for me as well, so much so that they have asked Jacob to make the logo for a well known site, that's all I can say

Wow...I have to say that there have been some pretty harsh remarks in this post. I have a degree in advertising/marketing and also worked in that field before beginning my photo business....so I guess I am a little qualified to remark.
First of all, it does not matter if another famous photographer uses your same font. It seems to me that Denise is marketing to consumers, not to fellow photographers...most likely those consumers will have no idea who Liana is. I think it's ridiculous to ask for a font change because someone else uses it...how many popular brands are there there on the market with the same font!?!? (Denise, if you keep this font, just make sure the rest of your branding does not resemble Liana.)
Second, even though the background is really pretty, it will get dated...but I think you can use it now! As long as you choose to keep your name placement/font the same, it can move backgrounds...that background could be for your wedding work...have a different one for a different branch of your work if you like.
Personally, a new logo is a big deal and I think we need to remember to be kind when commenting on other people's work. Thank you.

Denise, I posted this once before but think it needs to be said again. Swan smacked me in the head when I went through a round of logo designs and it really helped.

Is my current logo the best thing ever? No.
Did it break a few rules? Sure.
Am I happy with it? Yes.
Is the phone ringing? Yes.

But the honest criticism was helpful. In the spirit of honesty, I told Swan his green "S" logo looks like a beer bottle label and he was kind enough to not send a me a dead puppy in the mail. I was ready for it just in case, though.

"Bashing" isn't accurate. I was direct, but didn't bash.



I never called you an amateur; I stated a principle. I said this logo was mediocre.



Everything is not subjective, as I pointed out. Liking a picture, logo, or brand isn't what we're talking about. I'm talking about this piece's effectiveness to serve the purpose of a logo. I pointed out specific areas in which it will unquestionably fail. These aren't matters of opinion, it's just basic fact. As an example, the facts that this work becomes illegible and ineffective at the size of a quarter, that it's not vector, etc. are not opinions.



I said in a couple of ways that people likely won't appreciate what I was going to say; that doesn't mean it isn't valid. I hope you will agree that working hard or long on something doesn't necessarily mean it will be good. I never said people don't work hard, or that you didn't work hard on anything you've done. Unfortunately, in the case of design (and many other things), the number of hours spent is irrelevant to that thing's quality and effectiveness (though, I grant, that things worked on for longer periods of time tend to be better as a rule). I also never said I was a marketing legend.



Now it's my turn to be offended (yay!).

I never once made a personal attack on you. I only commented on the design and why I thought it insufficient. In your reply, not only did you fail to make a single defense on any of the technical or aesthetic issues I pointed out as problems; but you chose, instead, to take my criticism of your design as a criticism of your effort and your person. Then, you decide to imply (without any subtlety) that the reason I don't "bash" my clients' designs is only because I'm concerned with profit.

If my clients ever ask me for comments or criticism on their designs, I give it. I give it with the same amount of focus that I gave here--and with the same purpose. If you ask anyone who has ordered from KISS, they'll tell you we go above and beyond to make sure they're getting the best final product possible. It has nothing to do with the bottom line, as you crassly assume, but because we actually care a great deal about our clients and want them to succeed.



I doubt it.

I don't think it's at all ridiculous to respect someone else's brand. As I said, she's not breaking any laws by using that font, but we all know another person has made a strong relationship with that font and her business. It's not about what is legal, I just think it's respectful. I only brought it up in case she was unaware so she could make an informed decision about what to use. It would be unfortunate if she spent a bunch of money and time on something, launched it into the wild, and got blog/IM/PM/emails that said, "it's cool, but it looks like Liana Lehman's." I just thought she'd like to consider it.


I think it's a big deal, too. If people thought I was trying to be unkind, I'd like to state just the opposite. I'm trying to offer potential problems with something she's about to hang a lot of her business around. I wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings. I didn't say, "your brand is stupid, it sucks, and you're an idiot." I was technical, specific, and kept the comments about the mark, not about any person.

$.02 (which is obviously in a state of recession currently)

I doubt that my remarks here are even worth $.02. But I will put them out here anyway. I think that Kevins willingness to be specific and honest in his insight is incredably valuable. Personally, the most helpful comments from others on this forum have been those that give sincere, specific feedback. In fact it has not only been invaluable to me but it is also one of the things I appreicate most about this forum. It is all about refining each others work, or at least I thought. Regardless if Kevin's remarks are accurate or not I appreicate his willingness to share them, it took gutts. I also think it took gutts for Denise to ask for feedback. That being said, speaking with no authority whatsoever on this concept, I will tell my opinion of the logo. I think it is pretty, but I am not sure you will be happy with it, and to me Kevin's points just make sence. Again, that is just my take. As Greg and I continue to process all that it takes to make a successful photo biz, I am grateful for helpful threads such as this.

i hve to agree about the font thing - i would never change my font becasue someone else was using it. never.

but as far as swan's comments go, i think its great he even took the time to give you his honest opinion. i have learned so much from this board, and this is why - people taking the time to give their 02. some of the info may hurt, but in the end, its worth a few bandaids.....

Just listen to Kevin.

Sadly, he's generally right... even when it's not what you wanna hear. (Voice of experience talking )

Jacob...

Don't take offense to Kevin. He isn't criticizing you specifically, merely critiquing the "logo" that was presented to him. Although his very clinical tone can often come across as abrasive, he's actually REALLY looking out for the best interest of the original poster. Try to refrain from getting all flustered in response.

Denise, we'd love to see what you decide on!

Its all good folks, just one of those moments, like I said sorry for rant (even though Kevin didn't believe that) i was just having one of those days

No hard feelings Kevin, we have 45+ albums we are going to be sending to KISS this year.

Now you -know- KISS has got it goin' on if you don't like the owner and you still buy the products! Haha. No worries, mate. I really wasn't gjnnkng for you personally; sorry to have offended you.

K

ahhhhhhhhhhh I love happy endings!!!!!!!!!!!! I do appreciate Kevin's feedback and everyone else's........
I do love my new stamp/logo....whatever.....when I approached Jacob about
the stamp/logo I had something very specific in mind.....and showed him basically
what I wanted.....he just did what I asked......
I've seen his other logo work and it's fantastic....in my opinion anyways....
So if anyone thinks it's not a great logo...I'll take credit for that.....

I have so much to learn and I try to think outside the box, to me the style of
the stamp/logo is very attractive...very me, everyone else doesn't have to like it.

When I first started doing Trash the Dress, a lot of people thought I was weird, I
even got calls at home from old ladies scolding me for doing this to the sacred
Wedding gown.....but I continued on and run a pretty successful business here in
Chico.

I have a lot to learn about this industry and I am willing to learn, I'm all ears.....

Kevin can we discuss this more at OSP West.....I'd really like to know more about marketing myself.....


This is what I had in mind



Denise

i must say that i'm a bit surprised by some responses to kevin's input. (and in all honesty, i didn't read every one because it's just a sad digression.)

a constructive relpy - though viewed by some as a criticism - is no longer welcome? when someone who has a different perspective and HELPFUL information takes the time (and it takes TIME!) to offer an honest, complete critique, to attack them as if they were just being 'mean' is not only unprofessional, it's juvenile.

too often photography and design are described as 'subjective'. sure, there is this aspect, however, there are also OBJECTIVE rules. in order to break them well, you need to know the rules, otherwise you end up with a mess. just working in an industry does not make someone an expert. the information that kevin presented was not his opinion, these are rules of design.

i am in NO WAY implying the original design is a mess, in fact i like it a lot! i like it as a business card, not necessarily a logo. the rules kevin mentions can be chisled in stone. even if you don't like them, you may want to print them out and keep them in mind.

it seems that this thread has come to a natural (happy) conclusion, but i felt the need to chime in because all too often (lately) CONSTRUCTIVE crticism has been taken as a personal attack.

just to make sure that i anger the masses... i've seen a lot of albums looking for 'critique'. i fail to post. why? because it takes time to explain what's right and MORE IMPORTANTLY, what's wrong. you do not learn anything from a critique of 'looks great'. design is an art, but it's also a skill with rules that you can read and study and learn. it's much more than trying to copy what someone else created - and i don't see a lot of evidence that anyone has cracked open a book to further their knowledge.

open your minds - you may learn something.


debating honestly is a great, too. and if you don't agree with me that's cool! opinions will differ, rules of design don't.

Thanks Robin.....I think it would make a nice business card as well and I want to use
different parts as the logo.


Denise

i can understand that, denise.

you may want to consider using an ASPECTof it as your logo - for example a swirl or a vine. the FEEL of it is really beautiful. to use the entire thing would be fine, as well, just keep in mind that you *may* be limiting yourself severly.

the image that you posted with the photo on the card is a perfect example. it doesn't 'work' because you are losing so much of what you are calling your logo. does that make sense?

Yeppers...I now what you mean....but it will make a pretty business card,
and letter head.....

thanks Robin, I look forward to seeing you at OSPW......now if we can just
talk Kenny into coming again....he is such a sweetheart!!!

how about something like this?

I'm not crazy about the flourishes, and I much prefer the orientation of "photography" and the dot on the original stamp.

I do think the type treatment on the stamp would work just fine on its own for most purposes. We opted to not have a logo/symbol attached to our identity, but instead just use our type treatment of our business name the same way in every medium. Its not a logo, by definition, but it is working well for what we need.

Denise,

I like it, but I like the original, so you can listen to me or not !

Mandi

Thanks Mandi...... I like the original too!!!! I am keeping it....I'm just going to part of it
for images that I post online......I just don't know which part yet......

exactly.

and i like what you did with the photo, perhaps for the back of the card. scaling something down will help to create a 'logo'. i do like the original for the front. (my $.02) you will need to find a way to get this into vector form if you are going to use it to its fullest. and that's where i'm no help at all.

looking forward to seeing you at ospw2!

As a second time beginner and former art major, I welcome the harsh criticism of anything I do. It really is the only way to stretch yourself. It's easy to be self congratulatory when you're excited about something you recently worked on and thought was great. But, it's not until someone else can see it and the more the better...and the more honest, the better you get.

As long as it's done in such a way that the person doing the critiqueing (spelling) is doing it to help and not just to shoot you down. Most people here only want you to succeed. From all my art classes, the best criticism I got was from people whom I rarely agreed with. I may have disagreed with them, but they forced me, everytime, to see things just a bit differently and from a different perspective. And I still may have ignored them..but I never forgot what they said and who knows where that pushed me?

So please, don't stop the criticism on OSP, I need all I can get!

We learn more from criticism then a compliment. I am learning that more and more as I get older.

I would love for someone like Kevin to let me know where I am lacking in things because it will inspire me to be the best I can be. That said sometimes if someone comes form a condemning past it is hard to take criticism and I think there should be much grace for that also. It's about know who you are and what you can take and trying to gradually push your own boundaries.

but I must say I like the final design. I think it looks good.

I have no idea about Vectors either...

So your artwork was not created in a graphic design program, like Illustrator?

It's very common for photographers and non-graphic design professionals to create logos and such in programs like Photoshop, which wasn't really made for such works.

Unless I'm mistaken, your artwork would have to be re-created from scratch in a graphic design program that produces vector files.

Actually, Photoshop supports vector--as long as you keep all your graphics/text vector and you don't rasterize them. If you keep everything vector and all the effects on layers, you can render your Photoshop logo at any size smoothly.

My swan badge, for instance, is actually entirely vector and only takes 4 layers in photoshop. All the effects are kept on the effects layers, so they will "rebuild" at whatever size I need the image. I built the modified S in Illustrator, because I needed to take a normal S from a font, convert it to outlines, and then tweak it into a swan, but I saved that as an EPS and placed it into Photoshop as a vector element.

It's more complicated than doing everything in Illustrator. I just don't care for Illustrator much, personally, so I've learned to work around it.

K