It has come to my attention that Pictage is using EZPRINTS as their proof printer.

As a result of that knowledge, I want to let everyone know that has relied on the super-research into this area that we did that we are going to be leaving Pictage as quickly as possible.

Ezprints is the worst lab we have ever worked with. We will NOT partner with them through their own site, Printroom or Pictage. No way, no how.

I just wanted to let y'all know since photographers using Pictage were NOT told.

So this is for the direct print proofs that you can order?

Yeah - and who knows what else they're doing externally. The VP dude there said that they are using 3rd party vendors for whatever now ... and that they dont plan to let anyone know HOW their stuff is made.

Man, thats dirty.

bummer dude.
When I was with Printroom and Smugmug, I couldn't stand ezprints! The prints were always SO hot, it was rediculous. AND, that's another person in the CS loop -- when I had a problem, the client would call me, I'd call smugmug/printroom, they'd give me a lame apology and ask me to get the order back to them, they'd get it to ezprints, ezprints would give them the run-around feet-dragging, and my client would EVENTUALLY get a re-do. ugh.

Smugmug was very open that they were using ezprints. When I switched to Printroom, they straight-out denied that they used ezprints. I KNEW they were lying to me because the return address labels & packaging EXACTLY matched the stuff I had gotten from ezprints via smugmug.

This is a BIG reason why I fill my own orders. I choose my vendors, I'M in charge of the CS loop, and my vendors take care of me (because I've hand-chosen vendors that I know will treat me with professional respect & service).

+111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

Pictage will blame ezprints, ezprints will blame Pictage - I went through this at Photoreflect. I went thru it at Smugmug. I went through it before THAT at dpcprints. I have gone thru ezprints directly through photoreflect, I've gone through ezprints for backend. I WILL NOT print a single thing through Pictage from now until the time I or they figure out what to do. No way, no how.

I knew I was getting a lot of returned prints but didn't know why - they don't come out ANYTHING like the prints were coming out. NOTHING. Anyone who says differently is either LYING or getting fed a big dose of lie by someone else.

Which is exactly what all photographers do.

The point is that they should pick quality vendors - but they need to be able to change precisely because they need to be able to find better quality ones.

And companies like EZ Prints may have consumer and wholesale divisions which are completely separate.

We are beyond the days of the corner lab.

BETTER being the key term.

Ezprints is better than oh say my inkjet. Barely.

whcc


love them!

I already do love mpix so it's not the lab I'm worried about - how do you do the online part of it? Does whcc have online galleries? Do you use a cart system?

If you like Mpix, you could sign up with Millers Lab. They offer online hosting services and will fulfill for you. It is the same lab as Mpix. We haven't used their online hosting, it wasn't very mac friendly when we tried it, but it has been around for several years since then, so maybe it has improved. Millers is more expensive for prints than Mpix, but they also offer a lot more. We actually are primarily using WHCC now and we have our own cart. We still use Millers for proof magazines, black and whites (since they are actually printed on black and white paper), some event stuff and large orders of die cut wallets for seniors. Most of our other stuff is through WHCC now.

WHCC doesn't have a cart system.
Millers does, and they use the same machines MPix uses, but you're limited to only what Millers offers. It's hands-off, but the fees & commissions are hard to swallow for me, and I want to offer stuff from other vendors.

You know what I use I love it so much, I own the company - ha.
http://www.ezphotosales.com
the others are Skooks, PicPick, RedCart, PhotoCart, I'm probably forgetting something, but that's what comes to mind off the top of my head. Those are the systems that run on your own website.

There's also sendtoprint.net and simplephoto.
And there's eventpix & collages.net where you get to choose your own lab, and you don't have to fill the order.

EZPhotoSales has a free trial and is $100, but orders have to come through PayPal. I use it to sell prints (get 'em from MPix), canvas (get that from Pixel2Canvas), and Gina Alexander handbags, and jewelry when I've got a wild hair telling me I should sell jewelry (hopefully never again...always a PITA, but that's a different story).

The other hosted carts let orders come to you w/o payment or other payment gateways, so you have more flexibility that way.
Whenever AfterShutter's done (the developers are telling me it will be soon), orders will not have to go through PayPal for payment, but that's not available yet from me.

I've had good luck with Exposuremanager.com. They are an online hosting solution that's about $10/month (I think, I pay once a year), they have their own lab, use Fuji professional paper and my customers always rave about the print quality.

You can check out my gallery here if you like.

I use WHCC and ProDPI for all my direct orders.

OT

Carey,

I also use EZPS thanks to Melody's recommendation! GO MELODY!... ehem, anyway - when are you guys going to get the 'After Shutter' upgrade finished? Last time I checked, it was still saying "coming soon"... I really like EZPS but have a few things I would like to see added. If you want, I can PM you my ideas to make your cart even better than it already is.

I was wondering why my latest order of 4x6 proofs had a random address on it. Nice! The prints looked lousy and flat and the paper is extremely flimsy. This is so ridiculous. Has anyone talked with someone at Pictage? I thought they printed stuff on site?

yikes!!!! is it just ezprints for PROOFS? or is it FINAL PRINTS as well??

+1 on Miller's ....they've been good enough to me over the years that I haven't been able to bring myself to try the wonderful H&H or the much touted WHCC.

Right now they are working on prints that I ordered today for a wedding show THIS weekend. It was a last minute thing and if they can pull it off and get everything here in three days, I'll be amazed....and singing their praises to anyone who'll listen!

Thanks Matt, for letting everyone know. Pictage has such potential, but keep making missteps that I just can't overlook. KUDO's to you sweetie.

Everybody leave Pictage, get to a real pro lab, Pictage goes out of business, and those dang emails *may* stop!

I hate Pictage. And I've never used them. Pictage=Spam.

Miller's is definitely fast! I placed an order this morning for over 60 final prints and it looks like it will ship tonight and be here tomorrow. The only reason we switched a good portion of our work to WHCC is because Millers doesn't offer a lot of their products to Mac users. When we first started with them, they were extremely Mac friendly, but have pretty much dropped the ball on that over the past year and a half and made it so many of their products are unavailable to us. That has been really annoying and finally pushed us elsewhere.

I can toally attest to the sucky proof prints. We jsut got a batch of them and they are dark and the color is off, but I don't even want to deal with it. Thankfully, they're just proofs, but it makes me very worried about the quality of the professional prints. Any feedback on the professional prints?

Long live Instaproofs and WHCC!

people, people, people. leave pictage NOW! I did so about 6 months ago and couldn't be happier.

for those of you wondering how to do online sales other than Pictage, there IS a solution......

DIGILABS

www.digilabs.biz

SOOOOO much easier than Pictage. Customizable pages so your clients don't think they've even left your website. The user interface on both front and back ends are far better as well.

Hi Guys -

I am the aforementioned "VP dude" from Pictage in this thread.

To address some of the issues raised here:

1) All final prints are produced at the Pictage labs in LA.

2) A few months ago we outsourced the *printing only* of proof print orders to EZ Prints.

3) The Pictage lab still color corrects, renders, and QAs the orders before they are passed to EZ Prints *just for printing.* EZ Prints is using the same high quality printers that are in the Pictage lab. They are calibrating those printers weekly. They are printing on the same professional Kodak paper Pictage has always used.

From an end product perspective the prints you received in your last proof order should be no different whether they came off the Pictage printers or EZ Prints.

We have a quality task force at Pictage that reviews all areas of reported quality problems and what we've found is that the two most common reasons for a quality complaint are related to color space and calibration.

If you have recently purchased a new camera, switched to a new photo management software (like Lightroom or Aperture), or purchased a new computer/monitor, there may be a software driven reason why prints look different on your screen vs. what came out of our printers. We have an internal quality expert named Monty Jessop (mjessop@pictage.com) who is here to work with you to make sure we get your photos looking right. Please contact him if you have concerns about ANY of our products.

We have posted a lot of information about all pictage proof products in the proof products section of the new pro.pictage.

------------------------
Ian Siegel
VP Product and Technology
Pictage, Inc.

Thanks for your response Ian. Why is Pictage outsourcing the proof prints Is there anything else that is being outsourced? We have been contemplating your design solutions. Thank you.

You can check out www.eventpix.com
That is who I use. You can choose to self fulfill the order, or let them print it, or partner with one of their labs where they will send it to the partnered lab. That is how I started with them, because my local lab partners with them.

I have been checking into Carrie's program. I might switch to that this winter.

You're welcome Airika.

Here is the answer to your question and some others I was asked on the Pictage forums:

1) Are there other products or services that are outsourced?

Yes. There are certain products that the Pictage lab is not set up to handle (like the binding for books or albums.) As we go forward into 2008, there will be several additional products (frames, canvas prints, photostamps, etc...) which will be produced by 3rd parties.

2) Were photographers made aware of this (the EZ Prints) change?

The short answer is no.

The long answer is that Pictage is continuously improving the quality and efficiency of our operations. In some cases that means outsourcing like with the printing of proof prints. In other cases it means developing new software for everything from color correction to image archiving.

As Pictage grows - our backend operation becomes increasingly complicated. We will always communicate the "what" (turnaround times, quality, product features), but communicating the "how" will in most cases not be practical because of the rate of change. We hope that you will trust us to utilize best-in-class practices internally and if we're outsourcing - partner with best-in-class vendors who can meet our exacting quality standards.

3) Can I still have Pictage in CA do my proofing?

We no longer print proofs in LA. However, Pictage in effect still does your proofing. All of the color correction, rendering, and QA is done in the Pictage lab. The order is then sent to EZ Prints to be produced on a fully calibrated best-in-class printer and prints are produced on the same professional paper we use internally.

4) I really hope Pictage has their client's (photographers) best interest in mind when making important decisions like the outsourcing of one's work.

We are hyper-aware that we service the nations best photographers who by definition have the industry's highest quality standards. We are constantly looking for ways to be a better partner to you.

For proofing this year we have:

a) Reduced our turnaround time on loose proof print orders from 2+ days to less than 24 hours
b) Launched two new proof book styles (the hard and soft cover)
c) Allowed our photographers to select 4 new cover designs for those books (via survey from more than 20 design options)
d) In the next two weeks we will launch the redesigned consumer website which will dramatically improve the online proofing experience.

-------------------
Ian Siegel
VP Product and Technology
Pictage, Inc.

Thanks, Ian for posting up this information here, it definitely makes sense!

I love Pictage

Thanks for the quick response, Ian.

Would you guys ever consider a promotion where you give us (your photographers) some free print credit to order sample prints from various events? That way, we could see our own images and the quality of the prints for ourselves. I know you run other promotions for us (thank you) and I think that this would also be a valuable promotion. Perhaps you could even throw in free shipping so that everyone is more likely to take advantage of it? If the quality is as exceptional as you strive for, then we will all be singing your praises afterwards. Just a thought...

Thanks again for chiming in.

Ian... Have Pictage consider reducing the monthly fee, let say to half of what is right now?

I love Pictage, but for those of us who do not sell that many prints (because of our businees model) in any consistent fashion, the $99 a month can eat up our earning.

I think a reduction in monthly fee would help Pictage inmensely.

As a second suggestion... what about letting us choose who does our printing... in short, if you are going to outsource, let us outsource the printing to whomever we choose. I think that would end most of Pictage problem.

+1

Ya, I hate to be negative here, but I've never heard anyone say "Boy I sure get great consistent prints from Pictage!". I know people are more likely to post when they have a complaint than a praise, but you DO see those kind of posts (Big ) for WHCC, ProDPI, P2C, Millers, Mpix... but never Pictage...

Spotty print quality, big monthly fee, lots of direct marketing to clients with their own branding... where do I sign up?

I have been scanning Pictage Forums as well as OSP to see what is going on. I must say that ben a Pictage rep must not be a pleasent job at the moment.

Ian, like I say, I love the idea of Pictage. I truly believe it has great potential and a great solution. I write this because I don't want that what happened to Skooks Kart happen to Pictage also.

But by what I gather, over the years Pictage had the same kind of problems that does not seem to go away. I really think it may be getting beyond mere explanations and to drastci changes.

People feel that Pictage is only good at giving excuses and promises but not a fixing problems. This a perception that is growing. When I see a company that people either love or hate it worries me.

When I signed on to Pictage as my lab, I expect Pictage to be my lab not some secret source so you can save money. Not to disclouse the fact that some of Pictage printing was been outsourced is shrowded in deception.

In the Pictage forum you told Matt that you expected EZ Print to give Pictage a better service that EZ Print gave Matt because you are "Pictage":



I don't appreciate that answer. I don't choose a service provider because it gives someone preferential treatment (that shows low ethics), but because it has a demonstrated track record of excellent service to every client, small or big, no matter what. That shows integrity and that the company really care. If they don't, I have no guarantee that they will give me the service my brand name deserve when I am not looking or when I don't produce.

When I company treats me like the biggest client, although I don't bring that much revenue, it tells me that the company is truly proud and is commited to its trade and service.

By your answer, does that means that photographers like Mike Colon, David Jay, Dennis Regis and all other spokeperson for Pictage receive better service and treatment from Pictage just because they bring more volume to Pictage than me or any joe blow that is struggling to pay the $99 a month just to be part of Pictage? I sure hope not, but by your answer I am not that confident anymore.

And by choosing one of the lab with the worst track record in the nation shows that Pictage may be more concerned with their bottom line than quality. If Pictage is "trusted by the world best photographers" and they have the highest standards, What about putting substance to the words... why not chose WHCC to do your outsourcing? That will prove that Pictage want the best for its clients, big or small.


Pictage should learn from the Skooks experience. Credibility, once lost, it is hard to recover, no matter how much you revamp your website or who endorses you. I pray and hope that does not happen to Pictage.

Whaaa? Pictage just more than halved their monthly fee this year. If $99 dollars a month is eating into your profit, I wouldn't use Pictage at all... it doesn't make sense for low-volume/budget studios.

That said, I just had my first redo order EVER from a batch of final prints because of Bad Color Correction. I wasn't happy. I don't like looking incompetent in front of a client.

wow. well said, David

Ditto

We have a saying in Puerto Rico that goes "En guerra aviasada no mueren soldados" (In an announced war no soldier dies).

To those who has ears let them hear!!!

OMG - I am so totally confused right now. I have been running numbers and had just about decided to sign up with Pictage. I figure if nothing else, $99 per month with free album design service more than covers the design costs I pay my designer.

Ok, here is my rough estimate:

$99 x 12 months = $1188 / $14 per spread (what I pay my designer [and I get to keep my hi-res design files]) = 85 (spreads) / 20 (our average # of spreads per album) = 4.25 albums. Ta Da (who said on old dog can't learn that "new math")

So I'm thinking perhaps I might try out this Pictage thing. But now I'm really nervous again. I'm very serious when I say - I'm about to pull my hair out! I'm down to the final hour of developing our new pricing for 2008 and thought I had it figured out as far as my vendors but here we go again.

I'm sorry I don't remember who said it before me but, I've heard so much negative about Pictage (yet I'm considering them) can anyone post here or PM me and tell me why I should continue to consider Pictage? So far, all I know about them is that it costs me $99 per month regardless of what else I do with them. They will host my online gallery, fullfill online orders, take payment, and hopefully at some point send me a check assuming my orders out sell my monthly expenses. Have current users ever actually received a monthly check? Please tell me it's not just a place where all the "cool" people hang out.

I know I'm throughing a lot of questions. Hopefully at least three people will reply.

Pictage used to have a cheaper plan, but no one else offers everything Pictage does for $99 a month. (In fact, no one offers some of those things at all.)

As for checks, I will be getting one next month for $500 - from one order.

Where Pictage made a mistake is in telling you who they outsource to. You don't tell your clients that - so why should they? (And if you did, it wouldn't mean anything to them anyway - they trust you to provide a certain level of quality - tempered by the price they are willing to pay.) And I've never seen a photographer make a post asking for the best quality (lab/album/computer/business card printer/whatever). They are always looking for a good price - usually the lowest - that meets their basic quality requirements.

Pictage has every right to expect great service from EZPrints - if EZPrints wants to keep their business as a wholesale lab. But there's always a trade-off between price, volume, and quality. There is also a big market for low-quality consumer prints. If EZPrints wants to take on the responsibility of being a wholesale pro lab, let them try. That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with their consumer business. Giant operations like EZPrints are the future whether you like it or not. Companies like Pictage will be integrators of a variety of services - not actual providers - just like photographers are.

However, I also am sure that DJ, Colon, and Reggie, never have problems with the quality of their prints (and probably don't pay a cent for them either). Where Pictage made their biggest mistake wasn't with quality per se - but in consistency - a basic level of quality that (everyone) can count on.

I recently started using pictage. I do not use their albums or proof prints. I experimented by ordering proof prints from pictage and my usual lab with the same set of files. There was a complete difference in quality. It is not my monitor or any other issue creating muddy, low contrast pictage proofs. The prints looked great from my usual lab. The prints from pictage...not good. I spend an enormous of time editing. A non color corrected print SHOULD look great.

I will continue to use pictage for reasons other than their products or printing. Living in a hurricane zone, I have the peace of mind of having the additional archiving of image files. If by chance i ever lose my hard drives and dvds, the files should still exist...somewhere. The P3 payment processing is a great convenience. My website is set up to auto link the gallery names to a client page on my website and a gallery list even appears on my blog. I can have clients make folders of their favorite images and simply ftp the folder to myself (much easier than having them write down image numbers and then go through my hard drives of files to hand select each of their choices in creating new folders for ordering from my lab etc). And, I even booked a wedding based on my name in the pictage database of photographers within 2 months of joining. I also think it is nice that clients can create a DVD slideshow.

The coffee table books are a disappointment. I have not seen one of their color corrected prints. I am a bit worried about that one. I have no idea what people are getting when they order prints online. So far, I have had no complaints. Most people would not even notice a problem...even if I would.

The storefronts are not my favorite, i wish the images were larger, that we had more background options and a slideshow function. I wish they would take that dumb water mark off the images...i keep telling the program to do so...but it doesnt.

So far, for my needs, pictage is working as a storefront. I would never use them as my primary lab and I honestly never planned on doing so.

Pictage will bombard *your* customers with emails. Do you want that?

"Pictage will bombard *your* customers with emails. Do you want that?"

I'm gonna go against the flow on this one... Pictage's emails were one of the big reasons I decided to sign up and I've noticed a HUGE difference in my print sales. I'd hosted my own cart for two years through PickPic, and while the no fees is attractive, I'm in this to make money. Before pictage, I had client after client email and call and say, "I didn't know it was expiring, can you repost them?" Absolutely, but how many do you think never took the time to ask me?
The last few days an event is online now, I get multiple orders. That didn't happen when I did it all myself.

$99 a month, Pictage saves me SO much time, I don't think I'll ever do it on my own again, and I could never find someone to do it all for me for that little of an amount each month.

I've been with Pictage for 6 months now, and have had Several MAJOR customer service issues with my pro, but haven't heard one complaint from one of my customers.

I recently tried proofs through Pictage, and did notice an odd address, but they honestly look no different than my whcc prints. At least this order, but I won't be ordering proofs through pictage often either.

Matt, I'm just going from my own experience on the customer side of Pictage. They send so many emails to go look at an event that it is annoying. Way too many. Most customers aren't going to tell you it annoys them, but they will tell their friends.

I haven't noticed a change in proof print quality, but I did notice the change in turn-around time. I love getting the prints so quickly.

Mark,
If you are just looking at an event and never planning to buy anything, I can see that they would be annoying. But it's easy to remove your name from their list and not receive any more. There's a link at the bottom of EVERY email they send out that says "If you'd rather not receive future emails from Pictage, click here" with one button after, that asks if you are sure.

I was in the anti-Pictage bandwagon for a long time, and it's far from perfect, but the freedom it's allowed me to focus on my business is so worth the issues here and there.

hey matt,
i use my own photocart from picturespro.com- one time fee, easy EASY set up, and Tim, the owner is totally hands on and HELPFUL - he actually answers the phone!!! he has helped me with every *stupid* quesiton i have had.

he is in the process of setting up google checkout so that it's seamless (right now i just use pay pal or my own merchant service)

the uploaded is really FAST - i just point it at a folder of folders (yes FOLDERS) and it builds my galleries and uplaods them. i set the image i want to be first.
it's got every imaginable feature that i want - i even have a registry set up, and clients can add themselves! we add clients automatically.

here's my cart, if you want to see what i did - very basic for now!

i can make coupons and have specials. and i can even set up my boutique (accessories) to inlcude albums and anything i want!!

it's so simple and easy!
i really like the ability to customize, the ease of use, the reports, and the ONE time fee!
and i can put my album pages in there for people to check out.

i believe whcc does ship to 3rd party, but that's not how we do it.

just another option.

I LOVE whcc...

You would think that opt-out would work wouldn't you? Notsomuch. I've heard it from others, and it's happened to me.

Yeah, the opt out thing doesn't work. At least not for me. I've opted out twice from a gallery I looked at last year and still got emails. It was REALLY annoying. I have my Pictage mail going straight into the Spam folder now

So Pictage is using EZprints for proofs.. SO WHAT! Proofs are just that.. Proofs! They aren't meant to be used as 4x6's or anything quality.. Push proof magazines if you don't like it.

As some of you know, my wife Laura is a Pictage pro consultant so I've kept out of most Pictage threads.

I'm really not a poster boy for Pictage. They need to really change a few things to make themselves far better. However I must say that OSP is really jaded towards them. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just that I probably wouldn't question as many things as I do if I didn't read some post on here that put them into a negative light. I've read threads about Pictage print quality, time and time again to the point where I've come home and told Laura we should try getting prints elsewhere. We've done the experiments with the same files sent to 4 different print companies all to find that Pictage has tied the best of the other 3.

We've all had a bad print or a few but they always redo them to our satisfaction. The benefits of their program are unheard of in this industry. Free credit card processing!! Online hosting of your files! Free album design! All worth 99$ a month!

And I could go on and on about the events. Name somewhere else that hosts great events for photogs? WHCC have a partnercon? DO they take care of their people at WPPI? I think not! Being a photog can be a lonely job. If your not working an event you're probably sitting in a studio editing or attached to a computer in your home. Pictage offers local Pug meetings to let you connect and meet people just like you in your area. They do all of this for us!

The staff that I have met are great people. Dave L, Michael, Jamie, Katie, Adam, Deb and all the other pro-cons are amazingly nice, I'm sure if they had the time they would be "love cats" on here that would be giving as much helpful advice as they could. Next time you're at a Pictage event.. make sure you find Lisa and tell her THANK YOU! her job is probably the least well known but she puts all these events together for us all.

Yup, me too. I've even tried BLOCKING the Pictage emails, but they still get through somehow. Now they all go to the spam folder as well.