I'm in a toss-up right now and I'd appreciate some guidance.

I currently shoot with two 20D's and L lenses. I've been pretty happy with them, but I must say the focus accuracy leaves something to be desired. I'm not talking about lack of focus in low light, but rather accuracy over all. I use only the center AF point, have tried various techniques and am extremely careful about focus, so I really doubt this is operator error. I many times get back-focus by about 2 to 3 feet. It's totally random, but I'm now in the habit of shooting every pose and group 3 or 4 times just so I've got half a chance of getting correct focus. It happens with both my cams and all of my lenses, so I highly doubt it's a defect of any kind. I know other mainline photog's who have used 20D's and had the exact same problems.

I also notice my 20D images, especially RAW (converted in C1) look a bit "gritty". Can't explain beyond that, but fine details seem to have a grit to them rather than a soft smooth blend. Sort of noise, sort of not, but I don't like it whatever the description.

That's the background. I've been planning an upgrade for a while now, and the choices just get harder and harder.

I am super impressed with this new 5D coming out. Full frame (love it! love it!), the extra resolution, and from the few samples out there, the high ISO noise performance is mind blowing. I ran an ISO 3200 sample through Noiseware, then scaled it down to 8.2mp, and it looked just like what I get out of my 20D's at ISO 200 or 400. Just incredible. Being I'm a natural light shooter as much as possible, being able to jack up the ISO in the dark to keep those shutter speeds down is a major selling point.

Second of course is that high resolution at nearly 13MP. I'm not a res freak or anything, but it would be nice to use the cam to shoot commercial here and there, and maybe a landscape or two. I've sold more 20x30 prints in the past year than I thought I would in five times as long. So I know I will kick myself sooner or later wishing for more MP if I pass on it now. But in all reality, 16x20 is a big print, and anything larger than 11x14 will be pretty rare.

But at $3300, plus $250 for the grip, plus $200 for extra CF cards (13MP is big files!) = That comes to $3750 for the 5D. B&H has MkII's for only $100 more, and if I want to wait, the IIn's for $250 more.

Now, I'm 90% sold on the 5D, but I'm a bit scared about the focus situation. It's got basically the same system as the 20D with some minor mods. If I can't *reliably* nail focus on a group of 5 people standing still together, then it's not worth it at any price.

I know the specs of the MkII, faster frame rate, etc. Can some of you MkII shooters SELL me on the actual use of the cam? Focus is good, but just how good? Can I leave it in auto point selection and have it nail anything I put in the viewfinder? Do you ever miss (even slightly) on focus, or is it just simply bang on for each and every shot?

What about shutter sound volume? I know there's a "quiet" mode, but does it actually get quiet? And what about "image quality"? For any of you who have shot 20D's then straight to a MkII, without the bias of knowing one picture costs a lot more than the other, what *specifically* makes the image quallity of the MkII better than the 20D? This is a huge upgrade for not getting anymore pixels, so that quality better be a step up in some other way. What about high ISO noise? Does it still band like the 20D or is it more uniform and film grain looking? Metering? Does the spot meter really spot? How predictable is the auto metering? Does the MkII have any annoyances no matter how slight?

Again, I'm sold on the 5D, but I'm going to open my mind for the next few days and try to convince myself the MkII is the way to go just to make an honest selection.

Sell me, sell me, sell me.

Thanks!!!

I can't sell you but I CAN tell you I have the SAME issues you do with the 20D down to the tee. The focusing SUCKS. I was jus thinking that today with going through my birth story images and a lot of them were unusuable because of some of the wierd focuing on stuff I thought I focused on correctly. I also know I have heard many other photographers complain about the same thing.

I think it's a canon thing however. I would like to know if this gets better w/ the MarkII as well.

I also get the same noise you do anything 800ISO or higher even.
~Alisha

I select the center focusing spot only and don't give the camera the option to mess up (like D.R. said at the conference). It is still touchy though because of the nine point limitations compared to 45 in the II or IIn. That plus what Alisha said earlier about the two card slots, the fact that the body is much stronger and weatherproof is what makes the big difference and the choice much easier. Don't forget what Chris said about the buffer too.

Thanks Frank. I missed the conference so that doesn't help much. I will note that I do manually select the center point and ONLY shoot in that mode, very careful like - but I still miss focus on a whole bunch of images. I've given up on it bing a fluke or operator error. (I told myself I just need to be 'more careful' during my last 5 weddings, but just can't convince myself any longer. Having to shoot 5 fames in hope of getting a sharp one is just no way to work ).

Any specifics on accuracy of the MkII??

Thanks!

No sorry, but make sure you are in single servo too. I think it helps. Also make sure it is focus and not blur. Is there something that is critically focused on (tack sharp) in the shot when you miss?

Yes, the pebbles in the sidewalk 3 ft. behind the person.

Also some of these images are shot at 1/500 or faster, and I can usually get a sharp image down to 1/15, so I don't think it's motion blur. I also only shoot in Single Shot AF. A serries in particular shot from last weekend were group shots done at 1/500 and f/8 with a 24-70L at ISO 200. Center AF point hard selected, Single Shot AF. Put the focus square dead in their chest on every shot, made sure I got the solid dot focus indicator light, the shot. About 1/3 of them are focused 3 ft. behind the group, though there's nothing there to actually focus on. It didn't lock up a tree, the horizon, or an errant bluejay. Nope. Eyes and faces are blurred, but blades of grass along the ground 3 ft behind them are razor sharp.

I sure appreciate the help and suggestions here, but I've been beating my head on the wall with these issues for 3 months now, critically inspected the subject images and tried lots of possible solutions with no luck. And having the cams and lenses sent away for re-cal is out of the question going into the primary fall wedding season. I doubt a re-cal would have any effect anyway as these are totally random and intermittent.

Suffice to say I'm done with trying to fix the current setup. I think I've tried every possible fix, option, setting, and technique and still the same results. And even if it was technique, I've been a photographer for 10 years and it just shouldn't take that much effort to get images in focus.

So I'm onto working an upgrade I'd been planning anyway.

Don't get me wrong, the 20D does wonderful images. Many of them are flaweless, no complaints. But if I'm asking someone to pay $$$$ (which is $$$ more than the guy down the street is charging), I need some more assurance the images will be correct.

But I'm getting further off topic now.

I know (hope ) some of you can sing more praises about the MkII.

I've got half a mind to wander over to the Nikon site.

Kevin thanks for asking this question. This is the same one I was going to ask as I have a 20D and I am in need of another camera in the near future. My son took my backup 10D off to college and informed me that I am not getting it back anytime soon. But what keeps me thinking to stick with another 20D is the AMAZING shots Gino produced with his 20D. He shoots JPG (mostly) and a 20D and gets those shots. He must cheat somehow. Anyway, because he can do it, it makes me want to stick with a 20D. But if I were going to take a next step up -- which camera is the best? A 5D, Mark II or Mark IIn.

I was also contemplating waiting for DJ, Dane or some other awesome photographer to sell their II when they upgrade to a IIn. I figure their used II will already be trained to take awesome pictures so I need to do is point-n-shoot.

I also use the center focus point exclusively and have one of the functions selected that allows me to lock focus using the * button.

I've tried a couple of other ways, but I think this is a hold over from my old Nikon that would only focus in the center.

If I can't snap the focus with auto, I flip the switch and do it manually.

Thanks to Dr. Fahd for my laser enhanced supervision my eyesight is 20:13. Now if I could just get my brain to work fast...

Sean

Hey Sean, how do you set this function in the 20D. I have problems with this issue all the time as well.
Alisha

Custom function 4 (change it to option 1) Honestly I couldn't imagine shooting w/o it

I use this alot as well. I was having similar issues as you guys stated with the crazy focusing of the 20D. But using the focus lock helps a ton. Keep in mind that it really is only good for subjects that are standing still (obviously).

One of the things that I've struggled with in the past is trying to get processional shots in focus. I always end up with some totally blurry / oof ones that irritate the heck out of me. I have tried shooting in AI Servo mode etc and it doesn't seem to help that much. I've basically fallen back on using AI Servo and burst shooting in that case. At least 1 or 2 come out in focus.

Is the MarkII any better in this regard?


Andrew

We've just upgraded from D60's to 20D's. We also only use the center AF point and the * focus lock function on our 20D's.

I've been getting a lot of backfocus shots and I was thinking that I needed to have my 17-40L recalibrated or something... but again I noticed it also happens to my tamron 28-75 and sometimes to my 70-200 2.8L (e.g. I was focusing on the groom when I saw the shot the best man behind him was the one in focus)

Anyway, this is the first time I've read that people having problems with AF for their 20D's I hope canon comes up with a solution. But man, I love my 20D's!

I always thought that the back focus on my 20D was operator error. Till Kevin and others brought it up. Then I did some tests very carefully shooting and still getting back focus. I just got at Mark II N this week and my back focus days appear to be gone! I still have some out of focus shots -- but I am pretty certain it is operator error this time!

How do you guys have your focusing set up? On both my Mark II and my 20D I have my focusing set to the middle red box. I DON'T let my camera decide what to focus on as it will almost always pic the wrong thing.

Are you guys doing this and still having problems with it not focusing on what the red box is centered on?

I've NEVER had problems with focus on my 20D. In fact, I think focusing is a bit easier on the 20D than the Mark II personally.....

Hi Chris.

I have the middle focus point set as well. I have narrowed down any focus problems to user errors, including, but not limited to: being to close to the subject or having the lens set to a less than optimal focus distance, especially with the 70-200L or having the shutter speed too low (I don't have the IS version of the else.)

I can't really justify upgrading to a mark II at this time. I think the 20d is a great camera and I still have a lot of room to grow.

What is your assesment of the Mark IIn?

Sean

I've also had issues with my 20D. Thought it was me, but I think it might need a calibration. I almost always use center point AF, so I know that it's not wandering to a focus point I don't control.

Fortunately, the Canon service center is only 3 hours drive from here.

That is the way I have it set on my 20D. I haven't figured out how to do it on my Mark II yet!

Here are a couple of pictures from my 20D to give you an example of what I am talking about. In this case it could be operator error as they were a moving target. But this is identical to what I get when I am shooting a stationary object like a squirrel at our back yard feeder.

[attachmentid=1741][attachmentid=1742]

It seems like it happens to me often with the 20D. I don't have enough shots on the Mark II to be 100 percent convinced yet, but so far, I think the Mark II is much better at focusing.

Now where is that Mark II manual so I can figure out how to set it!