Hey all--

I know that many of us have had questions about this, and while we may not actually "want" to know the truth, here it is, straight from the source:

"Thank your for your enquiry regarding using Michael's songs on your
website. Unfortunately, it is quite a complex and difficult matter.
I forwarded your correspondence to the girl in management who does
all the publishing rights and this is what she has come back with.
Good luck with everything,
michelle"
mb.com

Airika,

Your e-mail regarding the use of Michael Buble titles on your web
site was forwarded to me.

There is a lengthy process of permissions which you are required to
obtain in order to do this. You are required to get a Synchronization License from the owners of the publishing for the titles which you are
interested in, they will need details about the use of the song(s) ie. the
length of the piece you want to use, specific details on how you plan to use it, how long you require the rights for, they will likely want to see the video or photo montage that you plan on running with the music.

You will also need to obtain a Master Use License from the repertoire
owner (in this case Warner Records), they will need all of the same
information as the publishers.

If the request is approved in principal, they will then access the
use and quote you a fee. Because this is a commercial web-site promoting a business it will probably be in the range of at least several thousand dollars for a 6 month - one year use for each of the licenses (Synchronization and Master Use) (any renewals of the license will require the fee plus an escalation to be paid again).

If you decide to proceed, you will pay the fee and will be sent the
necessary licenses.

I hope this information is helpful.

Sandee Bathgate
Director of Administration
Bruce Allen Talent
500-425 Carrall Street,
Vancouver, BC
V6B 6E3

So, there you go! Whether we like it or not, use of popular music on our website without following this process is illegal. I hope this helps some of you out there even though it makes me quite sad!

Airika

Good info Airika! Thanks.

So...if some lawyer saw all our showIT slideshows....we'd all be in lawsuits? I'm wondering how we've all gone this far and not have gotten in some kind of trouble?

Has anyone gotten into trouble yet?

Photographers = small fish
Napster = Big Fish
Overseas piratiers selling in US = Big fish

Eventually, somone is going to notice the small fish, and decide to make an example. Modus Operendi would be to target a small number of offenders and make a very scary example out of them so everyone else will stop.

If I follow the rules, then it won't be me that get's caught by the music lawyers. I'd rather be a boring fish with Gary Lamb or Triple Scoop (royalties paid) music than the dead fish on the lawyer's lawsiut line.

There's some GREAT royalty free music out there, and folks who allow their music to be used on sites. I recently contacted Frances England, who does some kids songs, and was given information on getting a commercial license directly from her. A few other artists have offered songs in exchange for links/writeups on blogs and the like....

+1

We're thinking abot contracting an artist to write a song for us!

Thank you so much for posting this! You did the right thing and it's so important to communicate it to those who may not know.

Really, y'all. We have got to spread the word. I have never and will never on the website or in slideshows use someone else's copyrighted artistic product without their permission. Forget risky. It's ethically wrong. I just don't get how photographers don't get this and tell themselves stories to make it feel like it's OK.

It's the equivalent of a musician copying photos from your site and using them to promote their work without asking you or paying you. Most photographers would have a fit if someone did that to them. This issue just gets me all riled up.

It is in our best interest as artists to protect copyrights -- all copyrights. It guards the integrity of our work and the stability of our own businesses now and in the future.

Climbing off of my soapbox. Apologies for the rant.

That's what Mera did -- LOVE the music on her site!!!

http://stock20.com has some great pieces of music for only $7 in multiple time versions I have a large library of thier stuff and it cost me less than $100

as it just so happens, i'm acquanted with someone who has a band and records so i am going to hit them up for an exchange of talents. music for publicity shots. until its finalized, i will go to the garage band site and get license free music.

Thanks for sharing what you found out with us.

Another option is to look around at the local artists.

I approached a local musician who creates wonderful piano music and he runs a recording studio out of his home. He was very receptive to my request and gave me permision to use his songs so long as I credited him on my site.

Tami, I just noticed your post after I hit the post button. Go for it! In the situation I am in it is win/win for both us. He gets exposure and so do I.

http://www.opensourcephoto.net/forum/index...showtopic=14190

And the music industry wonders why people download and use songs without permission.

We contacted Brushfire Records about using a G. Love song and they said the same thing. No way unless it's for a charitable non-profit organization or if you go through all the licensing and pay a few grand.

FYI- Brushfire Records is the label for Jack Johnson. So many people use "better together" it makes me sick!

we love stock20!

I am in the videographer industry and they talk about this at the conferences.
At this time no one has been sued for it and they said that its really not something to worry about at this time. I think eventually we might have issues with it and thats the point where we as photographers & videographers have to come together and fight for it. See for me at least if I dont have music that I chose for my productions I think my video business would greatly suffer and my style would somehow be lost because music is what drives me and inspires me to be more creative with the style of editing.
I would be so upset if we get to the point and the thing is you guys know there is no way we can afford to buy a copyright to a song everytime. Especially videographers considering we have to have several songs per edit. Things would get so expensive for us.

I 100% think that we should be doing something to get companies and musicians to let us use their music - it's a big market, and people would certainly pay for it if the process were easy (at least easier!)...problem is that most people don't even know where to begin and get frustrated and use the songs anyway. If there were some concerted effort on the part of photographers and videographers to negotiate licenses to use music on websites.....that would just be awesome. It really gets me when I've heard a song that I really like and think would be perfect for my site...I won't use it without proper permission, and then I'll stumble on another person's site who *is* using it, and I know they don't care about having permission to do so....irks me to no end.

+1!

Every once in a while I photograph musicians -- not necessarily for their promotion. Usually just family pictures and they happen to be musicians. I can usually barter licensing fees with them. It doesn't cost anything out-of-pocket and since they're very similar (licensing) it works out well. All they ask is that I point to their Web site if possible. If it's not (without a lot of work), then not to worry about it.

Of course, this is only for independent musicians. The ones backed by labels don't have as much say with licensing their music.

Josh, are you saying that videographers are using copyrighted music and not worrying about it yet? Royalty free stuff is out there for video folks too. I know one videographer that is making music videos for his couples using popular songs. Essentially the couples are just lip syncing with the real song as the music overlay. I'd be surprised if folks at WEVA were OK with this, especially since one of the videos is entered in competition.

Hey Mark,
Yes videographers & photographers are using copyright music everywhere lol.
Do you realise how bad Royalty free music is? the people at weva are who said these things lol. Every video entered in WEVA's competions is all copyright music. I hear Michael Bubbely all the time.

Whatever happened to the project DJ was working on re this? Was that thread lost in the crash?

Thanks Jim for posting this.

This below thread was started by me when I purchased my BMI Internet Music License.

After reading everything on OSP recently I'm not even sure now

So I just placed a call to BMI's New Media Division in New York. I left a detailed message for the person in charge of their Website licensing asking if I'm in compliance with my license using the song I use. (The one I licensed from BMI online)

As soon as I hear back I will post the response.

Wait a second, there's a lot of speculation on here and I'm pretty sure that an ASCAP liscense is not THAT expensive - you don't need a "sync" liscense!

I haven't done it yet - but it's on the list. I think LaCour said they had and it wasn't that hard. Here's your definative answer:

http://www.ascap.com/weblicense/ - they base your fees on some kind of calculation but here's the minimum:

ASCAP's Minimum Annual Fees are:

Non-Interactive 5.0: $288
Interactive 2.0: $340

Here's the details on how they calculate the fees

Anyway, you're not going to pay thousands of dollars to play a pop song on your website! The use their referring to would be some sort of commercial production or re-sale item. So please hold back from making so many generalizations. The music liscensing for your website would be something similar to what a mall or retail outlet would have to pay and it's roughly fair. The reason you got that answer from the admin assistant was that most people that contact them are looking to use the song in a commercial (think network tv) or a movie not a website that gets a couple hundred hits a month.

I did all this in 2min on google so in the time it took me to find the forms to download - you've already put off doing it. Now I'm going back to putting off doing it....but support the rich musicians out there who have been allowed to collectively bargain!

We've been in negotiations for the past 12 months with several different labels. Everyone in the process is cool with web licenses EXCEPT the labels and it's b/c they are going bust right now because they're trying to operate their business the same way they did (pre-internet) - LOL

Anyway, We have a few of the smaller labels onboard to allow for individual licenses of songs to use on websites and slideshows but we haven't agreed on a price. I know Becker had to pay several thousand dollars to use a song in a DVD he made but I'm guessing we'll be able to get somewhere around $30 which would include the rights to put it on 3 or 4 DVD's and then I'm guessing it'd be a bit more if you want it to also include a web license.Does this sound reasonable?

I know EVERYONE needs this service and we really did start the negotiations a year ago but the problem is that we'll get so far down the path with somebody at a certain label and then the label will downsize and the person will get let go and we'll be on to somebody else. It's an industry that's really scrapping to stay alive right now.

oh yea... BTW ... the ASCAP and BMI license (mentioned above) are only ONE piece of the puzzle so it is better than nothing but what Airika wrote above is the unfortunate reality.

I would think that something through BMI or ASCAP would apply to us. Who knows.

I have a friend who is a DJ. He pays fees to them each year. I'll check with him to see what he is paying just for comparison.

Tracy - BMI and ASCAP are only in charge of one part of the song. Each song is owned and managed by multiple people and we need pay each of them a "New Media License" type fee.

Like I said - they are one piece of the puzzle but not the whole thing.

Thanks for pursuing this DJ. You would think they would want to make it easier for photographers and other to legally use their music at a reasonable price. I am sure it would be a untapped source for income for them.

I was thinking about this very topic a few days ago. I was searching for one of my client's My Space pages. It seems that most everyone has a song playing on their My Space pages.

It's usually the venue that pays the ASCAP fees. That being said, ASCAP doesn't require a license if the DJ is spinning at a private party, not one open to the public and not an advertised party such as a rave.

IIRC, the ASCAP $288 license mentioned above is for playing songs as background on a website where (1) people have limited or no control over what song is played, (2) the music isn't sync'd to a presentation such as a slideshow and (3) revenue isn't derived from access to the site such as advertising or subscription revenue.

I personally contacted an artist that I found through MySpace who's music is beautiful IMHO and all I have to do is pay $30 & would be able to play her songs on my site.
Perhaps this would be an option for some of you... Find low key, not-so-famous, but very talented musicians who are trying to make it.

David, this sounds great. I am so glad you're working on this and although I know next to nothing, I would be willing to help. Please let me know if there is anything I can do.

Like Josh, I feel that using popular music is very important, but it's important to me to have the proper permissions. I just can't bring myself to do otherwise. I also get frustrated when I hear music on other photographer's sites and I usually know (b/c I ask them) that they have not gone through the proper avenues for permission.

Thanks again!

Airika

Do any of you link, to say, the iTunes store when you post a slideshow so that the music can be purchased by the people listening to it?

Call me a cynic, but her email looks like she's trying to make the process sound really hard so you'll just go away? Is the "at least several thousand dollars" that the company could make from this deal not enough to motivate them to try to REALLY help you?

what about when stores play copyrighted music? It seems to me that not every store is getting the permission for every song they play. This would be the same as music on a website.

It's not the same thing because courts and the legislature haven't created the same rules and regulations concerning the use of music on websites. Plus, stores don't put the same kind of thought into playing a single song (or two) OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. Finally, many stores aren't large enough to even fall under the licensing requirements. Radio and satellite radio are treated differently from CDs, and while I don't remember the rules, the purpose of the music and how it's used can also be factors.

I would say that most retail stores, larger ones at least, pay a monthly subscription fee to a music provider for the music they play. Muzak is just one of several different companies that offer such a service to retail stores. I seem to remember that XM Radio and/or Sirius too offers that service.

If they loaded it on your iPod as you walked in the door so you could listen as you browsed the isles... THAT would be closer to the same thing. As is it, I have to sit in the store if I want to listen to the song and cannot take it home with me or listen to it anywhere but that store.

The problem with websites is that the song is unprotected. I can grab any MP3 files that's playing on any photographer's site and *bingo* I have a copy, even if that MP3 is being "streamed" by a flash website. It's basically unprotected filesharing.

Or you could just record it off the radio.

What if an artist issues DRM free music? Example: Pearl Jam has released MOST of their live performances deliberately DRM free. But then they did this mostly so fans could trade "legal bootlegs" that were downloaded from their own web site (for a fee--they assumed everybody would by at least some of their stuff before trading). But that isn't commercial use, and the band will not release their music for any advertising. Any. (Tangent: rumor that they turned down a million bucks to use one of their songs for Viagra. Now that's integrity!!)

And FYI, I am part of a non-profit, we offered to pay, and were still turned down. It's pathetic really. Last week I finally found a RF song that I loved, and found it on 7 other west michigan photographer websites. Guess my site will stay music free, unless I can hire a local artist.

Maybe as photographers, we should start making our clients fill out applications, obtain liscensing, again and again, along with astronomical fees, to obtain their digital files. If we did that, i could honestly understand if people copy and pasted from the internet like crazy!

I was thinking of putting a Metallica song on my website...

So if the ASCAP & BMI web licenses are not the only pieces, what are the other pieces?

L0L was it "Better Man"? mwhahahahaha

Johny come lately to this thread but I just signed up and it was near the top of the forum

I find this not so much a legal issue as a moralaity issue. Sure, we are small fish in a big pond, and it is highly unlikely that someone is going to be sued because they are using a copyrighted song on their website or on their slideshows.

but...

What would you think if you found out someone, maybe another photographer, a company, magazine etc were using your photographs without paying you for the right? Obviously you'd want to be paid more than 99 cents (cost of an itunes download) for it right?

It sure does suck though when other photographers around you "just don't care" and rip off music for their clients DVD's while you are using stuff that is legal, that a lot time isn't as engaging as the latest Jack Johnson, Coldplay etc.

First of all you don't need both BMI and ASCAP since they are two separate publishers, unless you use songs from both. Economically it make sense to choose one and then use the songwriters they represent. So this license covers the songwriters, composers and music publishers for most photography websites, based on traffic, the ASCAP minimum license will apply - $288 annually.

The other major component required is the digital performance license for the performer. This is licensed through Sound Exchange, www.soundexchange.com, a wholly-owned subsidiary of the RIAA. Their minimum license fee is $500 annually and again will meet most photography website requirements.

The originator of this thread posted comments from Michael Buble's talent agency who said that you would need several other licenses, but this is very confusing - since ASCAP pays the songwriters, composers and music publishers and sound exchange pays Michael Buble!! Who else is entitled to a royalty?

I have worked as a consultant with both Sound Exchange and BMI and never heard of this type of license being required for a website. These are typically used for advertising where Ford uses a song for a national ad campaign. These web licenses were developed specifically for this purpose, so this confuses me greatly.

Frank

(I know this is an old thread but I just saw it and wanted to add to the banter.)

While we'd love to have the popular music by the best know artists in the world today on our sites we need to pay for it. For example, how would I feel if someone took one of my photos of my blog or my flickr and used it in lets say a Target Catalogue? (I know someone who had this happen). I'd be pissed in a huge way, I'd want some money! It is no different for musicians, it's their art, their talent and their property. If we want to use it we should pay.

I bought my song from Stock20.com It cost $20 for a one year licence. I'd rather do that then have something illegal and end up in hot water because of it.

What if you want a song from a less popular band? Can you contact the band directly? If they say "yes you can use it if you link to us" do you need that in writing or in a contract or is email confirmation enough?

Hi Becka!

You can always reach out to bands directly. However, if you're using the music in conjunction with your business - it's always worth taking a few minutes to type out a simple letter of agreement to avoid any problems or misunderstandings. I posted some key bullet points in a post here:

http://www.opensourcephoto.net/forum/index...st&p=324788

There's also a post with some explanation of how music licensing works:

http://www.opensourcephoto.net/forum/index...st&p=319684

Best,
Roy
http://www.TripleScoopMusic.com