Hello from Indy!

I was just wondering, how many of you, include a proof magazine or some call it a thumbnail proof book. If you don't include one or even include proof (4 x6) prints, how does your clients like going online and picking there prints? Also, if you do include one, is it on all packages or when they reach a certain price range?

Thanks for the input!

Jerome

N P E

I've only given physical proofs to one client ever...they're a waste of money for both of us. I can mark-up a final product way more than a proof product so I want my clients spending their money on final products.

I personally offer proofbooks. CPQ 10 x 13 sheets 6up...4up on group shots $1.95/sheet. Leather Craftsmen album $45...Leather Ccratsmen proof pages 1.10ea.......Brides reaction to her proof album....Priceless.

The proof album also assists the bride in making decision on thier favorites to go into the final album.

This is great for referrals as well. Brides are more willing to share the proof album than the final album.

Because I've never given proof albums I don't question that you're correct, but that makes me even more certain that I don't want to ever give proof albums. I would never want somebody trying to refer me and saying here check out these proof images he shot of my wedding. Yikes.

Every photograph of course doesn't make the proof album. The method I use is the same offered by Denis Reggie.

Which is?

Sorry I'm not familiar... care to share?

...I've been weighing the pros and cons of different proofing methods. I used to do 4x6's of every image in a slip in album.. that got old FAST. Now I'm doing the proof magazines, but I'm thinking about just doing onling hosting and maybe projection.

Unless Mr. Reggie has changed his ways I think he narrows down his weddings to around 800 pics to upload and use for proofing...I still think that's a significant expense without much opportunity for profit.

If you include an album in your packages I can see how it's kinda pointless. I havent been including albums though, so without proofs they'd just be hiring me for time and online image hosting... and I think the proofs help associate some physical product with the money they spend. Do you have many people object to the no proofs thing?

I'm in the process of revamping my entire pricing/packaging though so I'm definitely weighing pros and cons to everything. Obviously not even having to deal with physical proofs or the expense would be great! How do you convince people that it's not all that bad? Just show them what the album is going to look like? What about all those images they might not necessarily want in their album but would like to keep anyway (ie Aunt Millie in the background)...

DJ, if you never given out proof album, so your clients only see thier images online?

Also, in this little town the debate is to include or not to include an album. I think a "complete" package should be offered, others think not to include an album. Although they are some work, but I feel that the bride should know how much sh is going to spend.

Any thoughts? Also, factor in that this city is somewhat a small budget town.

Jerome

Ok if you look at my first reply you will see how the proofs are presented and the pricing of these items. CPQ prints 10 x 13 pages 6 up or 4 up for group shots, and the album and pages are ordered from Leather Craftsmen. Yes brides like to see the proofs. I don't include all of them of course. However the proofs tell the entire story. Double ordering a proofbook so that you can keep one in the studio is not a bad idea. I show brides the proofbook and it's an absolute seller! The number of each photograph is listed for the bride so that the final ordering process is easier. So you can get 12 images per page and 50 pages per album. That's up to 600 images per proof album. This is the proofing system of Denis Regie.

Here's a method that seems to work well:
Depending on the package, I offer a boxed set of 200 to 400 art-border proof prints, selected by the clients from the online proofs. There is also a credit toward their custom wedding book (album). I agree with Reuben that there is a tangible aspect involved that gives a "value-added" dimension. But the business of wedding photography has gone through so many changes with the advent of digital, that maybe hard-copy proofs will become a thing of the past. I've been considering reducing the number of art-border proofs to 100-200, which should be enough.
To answer Jerome's question about online proofing, I think it's the best way to go. It's convenient for everyone and there's no need to make proof prints that may never make it out of the box. Why make so many prints?

Do you do just one type of border for the full 200-400, or do you give a variety. If just one, do you pick what you feel best suits the client, or do you let them choose?

I give them in every package, always have. I LOVE THEM! so do my brides!
~Alisha

I think proof magazines offer a tangible way of presenting your product to your client. Just think of your bride walking around showing your proof book to everyone within days after the wedding. Talk about instant recognition. Just when the full buzz of the wedding is going on, the bride gets to be your best spokesperson. Now picture the bride going to church or walking in the beauty salon and saying "have you got a computer with DSL access, I would love to show you my wedding images".

Realistically, we would love for them to be walking around with the finished album and everyone ohhhhhhing and ahhhhhhing over the images. Unfortunately by the time that she has picked out her selections and we assemble the book, the initial heat has subsided. The sad truth is that the finished album probably doesn't get as much fanfair as we would like. It probably doesn't even leave their house in most cases.

I have asked every bride this year about their preferences regarding proofing and they unanimously want a proof magazine over internet posting and proofing CD's. I even had a bride book me for a sizable wedding because her friend used another photographer that proofed with a CD.

I only offer online proofing and give them the option to buy a proof magazine. I found that when I used to give them the proof magazine and offered the online images as an option I would never receive print or album orders and that the proof magazine was good enough for their album. The proof magazine is a great idea but as a replacement to the album? That is why I opted to have it as an add on and not included. I think I receive more traffic from the proofing.

my .02

Hi DJ,

How do you sell this to the client? Inspired by Gary Fong's DVD, I decided to give up proofs. The conversation now goes like this:

"When do we get the proofs?"

"The proofs are posted to your gallery about a week after you receive the album rough-draft design.

"OK, but when do we get the pictures? You know, the proofs?"

Actually, we do our proofing online. We've found that brides love our albums so much, the proofs end up being put in a shoebox and never get looked at anyway. With your completed album order, the online proof gallery and album slideshow exist indefinitely, so you'll be able to see your proofs whenever you want.

Uh-huh.

Am I doing anything wrong here? I'm thinking of taking the intermediate step of doing a proof book because:

1) On an 8-up 8x10, the proofs are so small they're not much fun to look at.
2) Since they're in a book, they can't be given out to friends and family. If they want a 4x6, they're going to have to order one!

-TM

I offer them in my higher end packages, yet another perk of going with the full package. Packages that don't include enough album credit for a full album don't include the proof books, but they're always available a la carte.

In my experience (mostly with portrait work, where the proof books are included after reaching a certain order amount and people try to reach that goal to get the books) people do love getting all their prints, even just little versions 6 to a page. I don't want to keep their proofs up online forever and a day, especially with portrait clients who respond really well to expiring online galleries, but love that they can still make orders from their proofs down the line.

At $1 a page for my local pro labs 8x10 proof magazines, less than 17 cents an image, or 29 cents for a 5x5 bordered proof for portrait folks, it's not alot of cash for a really big reaction. It's only included with my packages starting at $5400, so I can spare $130 for an extra happy bride.

Hi Sarah,

The problem is that, if the proof box is so mice that it causes the client not to buy as large an album, you're shooting yourself in the foot by offering it.

-TM

Great post!
I included a 10x15, 12 per page, proof magazine from Pictage, to every client last year.
Never again! This was a $ 1,900+ investment in sub-standard images. I now include one 8x12 fine art print that is matted and framed 11x14. I ship this with the DVD/digital negatives. The framed print costs the same as the proof mag, and now serves as the high standard of quality your work deserves. Then you fill homes in your market with your images on WALLS. Not in a DRAWERS!

ONLINE POOFS ALL THE WAY!!!! SAY NO TO PROOF PRINTS!!!!!

PROOF PRINTS=WALMART

Final PRINTS only

Proof prints just sound bad.

Hi Eric,

You give them a beautiful enlargement, but then you give them the DVD? They can print them small 'n' lousy at Walmart the next day. Maybe I drank too much of the Gary Fong cool-aid, but it seems to me giving them the DVD is worse then giving them proofs.

-Ben

so do you choose the print that is framed, or does the client?
if the client chooses, how do tell the client? do you just tell them you're giving them a complementary framed print? just curious.

I agree. A lot of clients and their moms inquire about physical proofs. I tell them they can order them if they want. I cannot charge a premium for them though. I have never had anyone actually order them. DJ is correct, you don't make money with them and the work to upload and get printed or print them yourself is a hassle.

A few have requested contact sheets if their event has gone offline, but that is it. I do charge for the contact sheets. Everything is priced a-la-carte on my wedding plans, so they can order pretty much whatever they want.

I do tell them if they order physical proofs, they keep them, I do not want them back...but they have to pay for them. I do not want the hassle of providing physical proofs and the huge issue of getting them back...they buy them, they keep them.

Today's brides pretty much don't care about physical proofs, in my area. Their moms almost always ask about them.

I trust that my client will see the value and quality in my work and want more of my great products. My framed print knocks the socks off Walmart.
When you deliver proof prints that are a lower quality than final prints, you look bad. When the clients get sub-standard images from Walmart. Walmart looks bad, not me. I bulid in the DVD of files into my price, and I do not need to sell any products to reach my business goals for the year. Trust me, loose prints end up where no one can see them.
Bottom line, only deliver the best, highest quality products, not a rough draft of the product!

The framed print is included in the package. The client chooses the print. I create it in the highest quality. They receive it and love me forever!

i do online proofing, and when i get wierd looks, i explain that i got proofs from my wedding that are sitting in a box on a shelf somewhere, so from my experience it is a waste. if they have their heart set on proofs, they can order them from my a-la-carte menu. seems to satisfy them.