So I was just running some numbers, and I was surprised to see that a Zook Book is practically the same price as a Leather Craftsmen 3500 for 8x8, 10x10, and 12x12. I was under the impression that LC albums were of a much finer quality. Am I wrong?

Also, has anyone used Zookbinder's print-to-bind service (all encompassing)? How did things turn out?

Thanks,
Aaron

Never used print-to-bind. I've ordered 3 zook books using prints I had run at WHCC then forwarded to Zook.

Zook quality is great. I recently saw some very nice LC books that JT had run. The LC is actually very similar to the high end Queensberry - it's a great product. Zook is still high quality, allows page guilding and rounds the corners. It's a nice look, but many prefer LC / Queensberry. It's a style preference more than anything. LC has more of a traditional "book" cover, where Zook has a very heavy thick cover with a thin binding around the back. Just a different style.

We too ran the numbers there in his office on a Zook vs. an LC and guess what... the Zook was actually more in every case - by just a few bucks. Less than $50 difference on each example.

So I guess it comes down to the style you prefer. I'm leaning toward the LC 3500's myself. I plan to order my next set of books with them.

So now that Graphi is near the price of Zook and LC, what about Graphi vs. LC?

-TM

That's funny.

We haven't used Leather Craftsman, but I have seen them several times at trade shows. We have used Zookbinders for three years now. They are very high quality. I really like that the corners are rounded and that they are gilded. I think the Leather Craftsman looks unfinished with it's square corners and no gilding, but that is just personal opinion. Pretty much what it comes down to is the look that you prefer. They are very equal in quality.

I used the print to bind once when I was well...in a bind, (lol) and it was STILL 2 week production time. Everything was awesome quality wise. If the print to bind wasn't so expensive, I'd use it all the time, and definitely plan to when I'm in a pinch for a quick Zook.

I use/offer both LC and Zook. It's based on the client's preference pretty much. I give them their options and based on their answers is what I go with. I love both of them.

I've used ZB's print to bind service once or twice and was very happy with the results. But if I'm not crunched for time, I still like to get my prints done via WHCC.

I don't get it.

-TM

I use Zookbinders for my books. I have done prints in WHCC and sent them to Zookbinders once. As soon as they introduced print-to-bind service I do only print-to-bind. It costs more, but I don't have to repackage prints and send them to Zookbinders, less work for me, no mistakes from putting prints in order on my side. The print quality from thier prints is the same as from WHCC. I didn't see any difference. I like that Zookbook lays flat. I was thinking about offering a few LC books but their ordering system is from the last century. With Zookbinders I use ROES which is great. I send them files and I am done. A book arrives after 2 weeks. I like that I can have books done in LC which can be more of my style. I like that LC has more choices of fonts and they can do split cover. At this point their ordering system and that the books don't lay flat stops me from switching.

Thanks for the replies everyone. I appreciate it.

Take care,
Aaron

i think what kevin is saying is that graphi is on a different level. they aren't quite the same quality.

Meaning Graphi is better?

-TM

uhhh no. meaning they are on a lower end scale. sorry for not being clear.

Hmm, that's interesting. My perception was that Graphi albums were generally considered to be of a higher grade than Zook. That's not the case? Can you quantify the differences?

-TM

i was just trying to help clarify for you what i think kevin meant. there are a million and one threads about graphi and people's opinions AKA complaints about them, do a search and you'll find all sorts of opinions and helpful experiences.

to try to take it back on topic.... i personally prefer LC over zook without a doubt.

Sorry about that. I was just being sarcastic.

Not to hijack or start any flaming, but in my opinion (which isn't worth much) - Graphi was once a very high quality book. Then they ditched the high quality and went mass production. For a year it seemed every other week I was getting emails that their prices were now cut in half, they were giving more and more free stuff away. It seemed they were begging for any business they could get. All of a sudden every photographer in town was doing graphi because they were cheap.

Their rep kept calling me - he just couldn't get the idea that I wasn't interested in doing business with a company that wanted to sell me on the concept of an album and 12 companion albums, all at half price, and by the way "we'll even design it for free", will you PLEASE order something from us.

He finally offered (after many phone calls) to send me a starter kit. I told him I wasn't going to pay for it, I wasn't going to "sign up" for anything, but he had my address, and if he wanted to send me something, then I couldn't really stop him.

No kidding, I got the startup kit. Now, if I were going to send someone an expensive demo piece and they brushed me off like that and I STILL sent it, I'd have to be pretty desperate to peddle my goods.

When the book arrived the acrylic cover was scratched, the cover image was inserted crooked and the part hanging out the bottom had a big smash/crease in it. The way graphi binds albums is they litterally take the two pieces of photographic paper and paste them together back to back. No card stock or stiff backing - just one photo glue-sticked to the back of the other, with a fold (cracked emulsion) down the center. And in their demo book these prints were already starting to pull appart from eachother and I'd just barely opened the thing.

If I'd just paid a couple grand for this family keepsake book, I'd be pretty upset. The book didn't say quality at all. It said "Let's slap as many of these things out as humanly possible, sell them dirt cheap, and slam the price throught the floor until enough people buy them to make it on volume alone."



Yea, that's pretty harsh I know, but.... they *used to be* a very high end company and they did what I feel so many companies today are doing - flying on the power of their name alone while slashing every ounce of quality possible in the name of mass sales. Mass sales always makes more money with lower quality.

I can say that my Zook Books, my Queensberry demo, and the Leather Craftsman I saw are leaps and bounds and then some above that pathetic excuse Graphi sent me as a demo.

They did however send it along in a really sweet leather case that fits my Queensberry demo perfectly. I threw the Graphi in the trash, but I kept the case to carry the QB around in.

And no - nobody at Graphi ever did anything to upset me and I've got no personal gripe against them, I don't want to see them fail or anything like that - it's just not a product I want my name on.

oops. double post.

FWIW, mine arrived just fine. And the custom sample with the brush aluminum cover was very nice.



Yes, their SMS (slim mounting system) is like that, but they do also offer card mount for no additional cost. I'm not sure how I feel about the "folded" vs "cut" center line.



Mine seems OK.



I'm submitting my first Zook order in a week or so. Now I'm excited to see it!



Ouch.


-TM

Yea, you should be pretty happy with it. Good solid book.

Compared to the LC, the pages are bit thicker, they have the guilding around the sides, the corners are rounded and the cover flaps themselves are thicker and more heavy. But all that said, I think I'm still leaning toward the LC from now on. I sat and compared my Queensberry to JT's LC and they are nearly identical. Very slight differences but only in design - quality wise, page build, the cut and trim, it was all identical. The only thing QB offers that LC doesn't is the full photo front cover which I love, but they're also a bit more expensive and more difficult to deal with being around the world and needing to run all your orders through PhotoJunction to make it happen.

Check out an LC demo for sure anyway. Essentially the same cost when running your prints at WHCC, so you could offer both and let the client choose.

i use both lc and zook. I generally tend to order from zook becasue they hold more pages in one book. I always seem to be over by like 4 pages to fit it into one LC.

[I really like that the corners are rounded and that they are gilded. I think the Leather Craftsman looks unfinished with it's square corners and no gilding, but that is just personal opinion.] QUOTED


Actually LC has gilding. Just saw it done at the factory. Not sure why their samples wouldn't have that at the show though.