Hello All,

I was recently contacted by another photographer in town. I had meant ot stop by and say hello for some time, but never quite got around to it. We spoke for a while, and he talked at some length about he uses "freelance" photographers to shoot events for him, and that's why he no longer uses his name as the studio name, as he frequently has other people shooting for him.

His stated goal is for his studio to be shooting 10 simultaneous events.

He asked me if I would like to shoot for him. I'm thinking to myself "Why would I want to do that? We're in the same town - why would I want to both shoot under my own name and also as faceless-photographer-#17 for him? How would that look to guests that were my previous clients?" etc.

What do you think?

Also, I see that on OSP two photographers will shoot together at an event, but they're almost peers (for example, Sally's blog will say "I shot this wedding with Suzie" and Suzie's blog will say "I shot this event with Sally." This seems all well and good, but I am wondering if people team up like that in the same market. I guess Sally and Suzie are implicitly recommending each other by including each other in their blogs. I guess in terms of gaining or loosing clients, it's a wash, but at the end of the day each of them is giving their clients another option that they are personally recommending. Seems a bit odd.

I know this is not very Tim-Sanders-Lovecatesque of me, but it seems to me that you have to draw the line at some point.

Thoughts?

-TM

I think it's a matter of perspective. I don't view other photogs in town as my competition. I think if we all work together and have open, honest relationships we all lift each other up. With that thought process, I love second shooting for my peers. It's great to be able to help out a friend, having the freedom to do some experimenting and just have fun shooting. I think if you run into a client, you just say hello and tell them you are shooting with a friend that needed a second shooter for that day.

As far as being an associate photographer for another studio; that is a decision that only you can make. Personally, I went into business for myself for the opportunity to grow my own business. Shooting for another studio will probably not grow your business. It's purely an opportunity to make money on weekends you are not booked.

I guess it depends on how comfortable you are in your market.

I'm not sure that I would shoot under another studio name unless A) I could use the images in my own portfolio, and/or B) the studio would credit me by name for any images they displayed in their own portfolio. (It's also important that you're paid what you're worth! A new second shooter working for $500 isn't a bad deal, but an established pro should command more!)

Ultimately, what you're describing sounds like a conflict of interests.

Just last weekend we team-shot a wedding with another Atlanta pro. We'll each do our own editing and processing. Because I booked the gig, I'll handle the product and print side of things, as well as delivery. But both of our company names and links to our sites will appear on the blog and any portfolios we create. This accomplishes two things: 1. It gives credit and publicity to both companies, and 2. It opens the door for future higher-priced team bookings. As long as I make my regular profit, I'm thrilled to work alongside another pro!

Hi Lori,

So when people ask you for a business card, do you point to the first shooter, or give them yours? In this "we all help each other out" system, to what extent is your own brand put away? In the Suzie/Sally case I mentioned above, it's as if their peers, and it's just that the client happen to hire one of them and that person is the one making the album, but otherwise they are both very much visible as individual studios.

-TM

I would steer them towards the first shooter, this is their wedding. That being said, I would blog about the shooting saying something to the effect of having shot a wedding with so and so, here's a few of my favorite pics and how much I enjoyed the day. Generally, the people i second shoot for are my friends who I know would turn around and second shoot for me when I need the help.

I view the weddings I second shoot for as just fun, helping friends out; not as opportunities to grow my business. Though sometimes you have the added benefit of adding some great images to your portfolio.

I think people do it for fun, for doing something different - not for "come be my full time 2nd and I'll pay you." Not for peers anyways.

If I am at a wedding shooting for Luke or Brady at their wedding and someone asks me for a card, you can dang sure bet I'm giving them Luke or Brady's card, not my own. I think giving your own is rude and self-promoting at the wrong time. I would never go with the intent of getting business from it.

We don't put our brand "away" but say it like this, say your part time job is a used car salesman. When you're at work, you are 100% pushing for Dull Honda or whatever. When you go home, say you want to private market your own used Honda. You would just put up a for sale sign on it or list it in the paper. You don't have to put the Dull sign on it. That's your job - the other is personal. I would never want to be a 2nd for another photographer AS A JOB. But I love to shoot. So I would do it for fun & experience and friendship anytime.

M

Hi Anne,

So is the contract with both studios, or with yours alone? The other studio gets a flat fee, as they're not going to realize any profits from enlargements or albums, right?

-TM

Hi Matt,

That's really neat that you have that kind of relationship. I guess the difference is that you're all individual photographers. In my case, the other fellow is trying to start a local version of Bella Pictures. He would never call me if he had a job he couldn't cover, since he would just bring in another of his shooters. When you're all individual photographers, helping each other means everyone benefits, because at the end of the day, each of you can only be in one place at a time. In my case, producing good work for him would mean more business for him, which would mean him bringing in more out-of-area freelancers to shoot events.

Does what I'm saying make sense?

-TM

It depends. If we're guaranteeing "John Smith" as the other photographer, then his name goes on the contract as well. If we're just guaranteeing a nameless shooter of our choosing, then the contract is with us alone.

For specific shooters, we split all profits equally (minus product and production costs).

For shoot-and-burn unnamed shooters, we keep all profits -- like a work-for-hire deal.



I totally get what you're saying, and I still think it's a conflict of interests for you. Unless you're really needing the work or the money, I wouldn't accept this type of work. It would just frustrate me.

Hi Anne,

That's a very interesting way of doing things. So for the profit-splitting, I guess you must have hourly "cost" rates that you apply to your time for making the album, meeting with clients, etc.?



Yes, I'm leaning that way, but I feel like I'm letting down Tim Sanders. But at one point in the book, he says "being a love cat does not mean being a stupid cat." I'd love to shoot with folks from OSP, but I don't think helping this guy build up his "dozens of associate photographers" business is in my best interest.

-TM

If you need the money.



"losing"

One of the best ways to maximize your referrals - and lock out the competition - in your area is to create a referral network with similar photographers. You second shoot with each other for the same reason.

As I said, I'd never join that sort of thing.

Exactly. It's all agreed-upon in advance with the other photographer so that we all feel taken-care-of. Usually, the orders are a pretty even mix of my/our stuff and the other photographer's working, so it's easy to split the profit. We don't go crazy and figure out exact percentages per image or anything like that.



Second shooting is TOTALLY different from sub-contracting for another company though. I'm happy to help fellow photographers because I know they'll help me in a pinch, too, and we refer back and forth. But a Bella-type of company isn't EVER going to refer to me, because they'll NEVER be booked; instead they'll just sub-contract someone else to do it under their name. It's a great business model for the owner, but not so great for a photographer wanting to build his/her own name.

We do it to create a buzz. To get people talking about us, and to have fun with eachother. It is all about growing, growing as a shooter because you get to do things you normally can't, and growing your businesses because people know you are another top shooter. The first has to make the client aware of how big a deal it is though and not just some second you hired.

I wouldn't shoot for the other guy. He isn't going to send you business, and he is going to say "yea, she used to shoot for me".

Matt, have you ever second shot for Luke, Brady, or anyone since you had your own business? I like what you had to say, but if you have never done it, then you don't really know what it is like.

Go with your gut!

We have a local "studio" that wants to do the same thing. I talked to him last year about second shooting. At first it sounded ok, but the more I asked questions the less "fuzzy" I felt inside. In the end he wanted to pay me $200 for an entire day of shooting with MY equipment, but what really turned me off was that he wanted me to sign a contract with him that I wouldn't book any more dates on my own. Umm...no.

I'm thankful that my husband was supportive when I told him I wanted to stick it out on my own!