I have always gone for print sales, mainly b/c I know the difference a good lab can make & I loathe the thought of anyone taking prints to Wal-mart. That being said, I've noticed quite a few around here who offer images on CD (not just for weddings) and I'm torn!

On one hand, selling image CD/DVDs (or including them as part of the "whole enchilada" experience) would be something to make you really stand out from the crowd. An incentive for using your services. On the other hand, you lose quality control (I'm a self-admitted control freak) & your images are floating around, printed nilly-willy at the local one hour photo.

So far in my short time in photography, I've used the "lure them with a lower sitting fee, show them images they can't resist & make your profit on print sales" philosophy, but I wonder if it wouldn't greatly reduce my workload on the backend & give me something that sets me apart from the herd by offering images on CD.

SO...to get back to the theme of this thread: what do you do?

I'm considering greatly increasing my sitting fee (it needs to be done anyway) to include a JLee album of proofs with the option of buying a image CD (or including it in the "whole enchilada" price). However, I know that if I go this route, print sales will be zero to none, so I will have to SIGNIFICANTLY raise prices which may hurt me in the long run.


Opinions, advice....ANYTHING, puleeze!

I am always fighting this idea of selling CD of images....and giving them prints that I print at my lab to show them what the image "should" look like.

I have, for personal use only for quick prints in one hour, used Costco with their 'color correction' turned OFF...and the prints were not have bad?????

Of course....any print that is larger than an 8X10 I have it mounted on styrene....so my total recommendation is any larger print should go through me.

I am interested what others think???

For portraits there is NO reason to give full CD's out. Youre clients are going to get cruddy prints and cruddy products made from your images and you're going to come off as a cheap, nothing special photographer.

If they go to the local big name studfio they arent going to get a CD, and I've only had one person ever ask about portrait files, and she had a good reason. I sell them individually for $50. I don't think alot of people expect a CD from portraits, weddings are different.

Offer them indivdually at a price, never the whole shabang.

As far as relying on print sales vs. sitting fee- I cant offer any advice I think its all in preference.

i'm coming to the portrait side of things slowly, kind of 'by request'. the only way that i can make it worth my while is to be compensated for my time.

i just posted about how we are going to approach seniors. it's different and it seems expensive, because it is. our weddings are expensive, too. IMHO nothing is cheap any more.

i believe that you create the perceived value of your product, whether it is a sitting fee or prints. if you price it too low, it will be perceived as CHEAP, or even worse, it will be perceived as worthless. if you price it high, you get no clients. hmmmmm.... what to do?

you need to determine your pricing with a formula. random pricing based on what others charge, or what you THINK people will pay may either create more competition than you can handle, or create a product that you can't afford to provide profitably. i am often tempted to fall into this pricing trap. then, i remind myself that if it is a business decision to do something new or different, it needs to be decision that is good for biz. if it's something that is just for fun, price doesn't matter.

whatever you do, make sure you aren't HOPING to sell something to make up your costs. that is just backwards.

regarding a cd/dvd. be careful here. the quality control argument is weak. (i respectfully disagree with your reasoning.) i print stuff at wal-mart in a pinch, and it looks great. for me it is about the TIME it takes me to make a PROOF a finished print. retouching and making it professionally print-worthy. i will NEVER give someone proofs to print and i'm really careful about who gets printable files. these are your golden eggs. if you give them away they have the value you place on them. to yuu they are priceless - don't let them be percieved as worthless.

This has been my thought all along. I totally agree.

And I also agree that pricing is personal, so it can only be determined by you & your books. I guess my dilemma is more about "perceived value." I want people to value my time/services/products. I know if you price too low, people look to you as a "cheap photographer" but if you price too high, you become an "exclusive photographer" for the upper crust. I'm trying to find a happy balance somewhere in between.

So I wonder if anyone has a higher sitting fee with a print credit incorporated into it?

We have a reasonable session fee and rely on print sales. We have been doing this full time for 3 1/2 years and it is working for us. The market that we are aiming for is the upper middle class and up. Honestly, in our area, that market does not want to pay a hefty session fee up front. They want to be able to choose what they purchase after they see the images. We have had customers comment that they are relieved that we don't force them to order a package of prints that they don't want, all of our stuff is a la carte. They also have commented that they appreciate that we don't charge an astronomical session fee. That just doesn't go over well here. Our sales are good, we have gradually raised our print prices since we started and I am happy with where we are at.

We do not provide images on a disc for portrait customers, unless they have come in for a business head shot or they have a special circumstance. Very very rarely does anyone even ask for them. It really is not expected in this area for portraits.

Weddings do have more of an expectation to be able to purchase the digital negatives. We only offer them for sale with a certain size package that includes an album.

the happy balance in between may be the issue.
you cannot be all things to all people. i am not saying you can't find a balance, i guess i'm wondering why you would want to?

you may need to decide who your client is. what do they want? who are they? if you are going to price things for appeal to everyone, you could be competing with Sears. (not a game i want to be in). i want the upper crust. i'm not sure why you WOULDN'T want to be there? do you want to work just as hard for less? do you think there is not enough to go around?

math. it's all math. the more you earn, the less you need to book. the less you charge, the more you need to work, and the more potential clients that you have to fight Sears for. i do not have an mba, but i'm sure there is some rule about this. (where's dan????? - did he ever get back from lent?)

why not be the upper crust photographer? why not? if the answer is 'i'm afraid....' then the problem is NOT the lack of clients.

two observations i make regularly... 1 - if people want something bad enough, they will find a way to get it. 2 - people will spend ridiculous amounts of money on their kids and pets.

the senior thing is about to get interesting for us. we're marketing it as ALL INCLUSVE. we can afford to try something new, but i'm not going to do it if it's not profitable. that's just biz.

Thanks, Lynn. It sounds like you & I are in very simliar circumstances. Like it or not, people perceive session fees as money down the drain which is sad b/c these same people wouldn't think twice about spending double the cost of a session fee at a restaurant, and that really IS money down the drain.

I also do a la carte & the only people who have asked about packages are senior parents or people who are used to Sears. I started with a la carte b/c, as a I parent, I always wanted to spend my $ on what I wanted/needed instead of haivng a bunch of spare prints lying around.

Right, again. Know why? I'm NOT upper crust. All my friends and the people I have relationships with are good ol' middle crust.

My feelings get in the way of doing business a lot and I know this is dangerous....b/c "business is business," right? It's just that I have such a horrible time telling people "I'm sorry. You can't afford me" (okay, so I would never say that, but you KWIM....)

So here's the part where you tell me that unless I suck it up & start looking at numbers instead of emotions, I'll never make it in this biz....

I have a really simple guideline for selling the images on disk...

ALWAYS offer it... NOT for free... do not give away images for free... figure out your price point where it's worth selling... What's your average print sale? price the disk just above that... can't hurt, you'll make more than you would have from prints...

(yes, I know there is the quality arguement...) so here's what my wife has worked out... she will sell the disk of images for a set price that is worth selling it for, AFTER the client orders a certain dollar amount in prints/product.

You're in business to make money, so why would you not offer a product to your clients that for one, they probably want, and for two, makes a GREAT profit for you...?

I say do it... but I know a lot of people who are VERY anti this... and if you don't want to sell them, I'm not here to tell you you're wrong... but keep in mind that this is another product to sell....

i'm not upper crust either! i live in a 900 sqft house - 1 bedroom! i shop at wal-mart and the like. people who have money have it (generally) because they don't spend it. these are NOT the people you are selling to. it's hard to throw that high price out there - the first time. then, it just becomes your price. it's the cost of your product. it's not a reflection on you or your client. don't take it personally. it's not personal.

i think that instead of 'sucking it up' you need to evaluate who you want your client to be. there is NOTHING wrong with wanting the more middle of the road spender. Lynn said it best - she knows who her clients are and what they want and she HAPPY.

i work with people during the day who now all know about my biz. they are amazed that i charge what i charge. they think i'm nuts! but, i know that if i NEED to earn $1300 for a project, i'm not going to get it with a price tag of $600. and GOING BACK TO HOW MUCH TO CHARGE, i know i NEED to charge $1300 to be profitable. again, pricing is NOT random.

I have all my COS figures, expenses, etc. all written down, charted out, put into percentages, etc.... I've been using the PPA"s financial survey (which was very helpful), so I know what I should do as far as figuring prices goes.

Back to the question of prints vs sitting fees:
In my mind, it's a question of perceived value. For instance, if a client pays an "high-end" sitting fee, do they perceive it as being more valuable if they are getting something with it (say a leather bound album) as opposed to just paying a sitting fee...the end? KWIM? I know and you know that a sitting fee IS paying for something, but it's not tangible for the cleint. Does a client get more satisfaction by paying a small sitting fee & spending a higher amount of $ on prints b/c it is something tangible.

I guess you could compare it to the school fundraising campaigns. There's always a group selling wrapping paper, candy or something rather than simply asking for donations. Why? Because they know people are more willing to shell out $ for a product rather than simply giving a donation.

Am I making any sense?



I think that is a great solution for anyone wanting to sell images on CD.

That's what I do - buy a session album from your portrait session - simple JLee with 24 or 30 finished 5x7 bordered prints - and you get those files included with your album. Reach certain price points gives you increasing discounts on all files. It's always an option, but not one most people are going to take.

I get asked often about files, as more and more people get interested in photography, scrapbooking, and more and companies start offering ways to make all sorts of cards and books and goodies. So I changed it up a bit. Now when people ask about files, I refer them to my digital session, which has a session fee of $825 and includes up to 25 hi res files. It also includes a small print credit so they have examples of the photographs printed beautifully, and 20% off print prices. Twp people have chosen that route, one of whom made additional print orders through me of several hundred dollars, while the other has yet to place their order. I even booked a digital year in the life session at $2200, which is three sessions in a year. I didn't really think people would bite on that, it was more a ready answer for those who wanted the files, but I was quite pleased when I did.

For me, $850 for 30 finished files, shooting, post, and delivery less than a day's work, minus a small amount for prints and packaging. I include info on how to make good prints and turn em loose. I used to worry alot about the quality control issue, and yes, I'm sure people will occasionally do dumb things with the files, but I've also seen the prints my neighbor got the other day from mpix, and they're lovely. Because my clients have the option, they can choose either model, and I imagine most will choose for me to provide prints.

As for the session fee, I charge a higher session fee & prints start at $15. A print credit is included to get them started. I know it's not the traditional model for photography, a small session fee and high print prices seem to be the norm, but I've always personally hated it. When I talk to my clients, they all say it felt like a bait and switch to them too. With me, they know that they don't have to pay anything else after the session if they don't want to. (They always do spend more, but if they wanted to just use their print credit and walk, they could do that, no pressure.)

And it makes more sense to me personally too. What they're coming to me for isn't a super secret printer with crazy mojo that makes an 8x10 worth $75, it's me - my skills, my eye, my processing, my attitude, my products. I want them to pay, up front, for me to do my thing, and to trust that they will get beautiful prints because of it. I want those photos in their homes and on their desks and yes, even winging around via email. I want them to be SEEN. Charging more up front means more time for finished proofs, which means more impact at the proofing session, which translates to higher sales.

I totally forgot that I polled my past clients as I moved out of state to get a feel for what I should do when starting over. This is how they answered one of the questions:

1-Which would you personally prefer
*paying a sitting fee then buying portraits individually --80%
*paying a larger sitting fee with sitting & some prints included --20%

So I guess I had the anwer (for me) under my nose the entire time!

the price helps to achieve a higher preceived value, but that is not the whole story. i think a lot of it is the experience.

when i go to wal-mart, i expect a certain level of service. it is a low expectation. i expect to get what i paid for - nothing more, sometimes less, and that's ok because the price is low. i bought a $5 pair of sunglasses - they had a tag on the nose piece and the checkout girl dropped them in a recycled wal-mart bag and handed them to me with a smile. i paid for that service.

i recently bought a pair of sunglasses at coach. they were pretty pricey. they were wrapped in tissue and in a hard case and in a gorgeous bag. the girl took all the magnetic 'don't steal me' tags off, cleaned them and put them in their special case. she put the tissue wrapped case in the goregous bag and handed them to me with a smile.

when i have to take my honda in to get serviced, they have a shuttle that takes me to work. when i have to take the benz in for service, they give me a loaner for the day. (yea - the benz - i lost my mind last year. don't worry it's pre-owned.)

different levels of service. different levels of quality. percieved value. is it worth it? that is up to the client. your price sets expectations. you need to exceed them. your service is one aspect. your art is another. some clients see your art at pictures that anyone can take - for free. they are not excited to begin with, how would you make them happy? you probably can't. adding things that the client WANTS is the key to increasing value. if someone is coming to have photographs taken - WHY? what are they going to do with them? you need to know what they want. customize a package, offer things ala carte, but don't give them stuff they don't want - this is just junk. no one wants junk.

going back to the sitting fee vs prints. i think you might want to look at what the client wants... ask them. explain the time it takes to photograph and proof and process the priceless images you will create. explain that your skill has taken years to achieve and that the product that you offer is unique. the print is not just ink on paper. they know that, or they would get a disposable camera and do it themselves. convince them they are cheap at twice the price that you are going to ask, and give them more than they expected.






the way you worded it, i would have chosen the first option, too. why would i pay more for the SAME sitting fee? what prints are included? what if i don't want those sizes?
it's a great question - and market studies are very smart! just be careful of how you word things, too.

I'm almost in total agreement with bellisima's statements (as I usually am).

But ultimately, I believe being in this business is about doing something you love to do, for people who appreciate it. You want to take care of your customers. Sometimes that means you have to make tough choices which involve price.

You can't keep providing the best products and services to your customers if eventually you can't afford to do it anymore. Everything costs money and your photo business should cover your overhead which includes everything from replacing gear, to insurance, growth, and your paycheck. A good pricing strategy is good for everyone.

I think it's important to charge a session fee that will cover your time and expenses. Include a quality print with that (something tangible). And explain that any prints you "finish" or prepare for print-quality involves extra time and care by you to make them that way. So, that's why you must charge $XX per image ordered.

What I do is charge the session fee. Charge per print (because there is post work involved). And then give them that finished digital file ALONG with the print, with permission and my blessing to make as many copies as they like, for personal/family use. Of course, they are encouraged to go to a good lab. But this print is going to be scanned, photo-copied, put on myspace, you name it. There's only a certain amount of control you'll ever have.

I've only skimmed over the rest of the responses, but here's what I do:

Mid-High session fee - $250 but that includes a $100 credit (to make sure that they place an order before their gallery expires)

Low - Mid Print Prices - $12 for a 5x7 and it goes up from there

I offer the CD and encourage them to buy it - it's $500. I educate my clients that the images on the cd are the same ones that they see in their slideshow and ordeirng gallery, but they are not given the same attention as those that get ordered through me. I do give them art proofs of 50 of their images along with the cd so that they can see what the prints look like.

Why do I offer them? Because I would want them. Because I hate the idea that I will someday delete their files and they will gone forever. Because it sets me apart from others in the area. Because the profit margin (both money and time-wise) is so good on the CD of images that I can't pass it up. Because it's simple and clients like simple choices. Because I believe that I get much more of a profit through offering the cd than through print orders.

I often hear the "I offer them for weddings but not for portraits" mantra - but I don't really get that. Why is a wedding picture considered any more important than a newborn picture? You can't redo either event. Getting married and having children were both equally important in my experiences. And if I had to choose between my wedding pictures and my children's pictures, I would choose the pictures of my rolie polie chubsters any day. I think the trend is going towards offering the digital files to portrait clients as well, just as weddings have gone down that path.

And there is really no way to have quality control in this day and age. At some point, you just have to accept that the client is going to do what they want with their prints/products.

If high session fees are not appealing to your client, then there is probably a lack of perceived value in the session itself. I customize each session - I ask a lot of details about the babies/kids. I am truly interested in building a relationship with my clients. I provide an experience that cannot be matched at any chain portrait company. I provide a product that cannot be matched by anyone in the area except a small handful of professionals. Clients are attracted by the work, but they come back because they are loyal to me as a person.

Excellent response. I think where it gets tricky about offering a CD is where lots of editing, PP is required per image to make it right -- as with boudoir images, or something like pagent headshots.

In those cases, it's a scary thought that I'd provide a CD of images that contains a ton of unfinished work (heavy retouching, liquify, etc.) -- and trust me, those types of sessions always require that despite perfectly controlled lighting scenarios. And if some of those images might be seen by other potential clients (friends of the client), gosh, even too many times by the client themselves, it isn't good for business.

Other than that, I don't think I'd have a problem selling the rights to reprint all the images off the CD.

I do something similar to SaraH.

I offer three options at different prices that include, amongst other things, a sitting fee, online proofs for a certain amount of time, and a print credit. That way they know up front how much the are spending and after the session is done, they don't have to spend anything more if they don't want. The way I offer the CD of images is that it's availble for purchase withing 3 years from the date of the session, after three years the session will be deleted and the images lost. The CD includes everything I gave them both proofs and finished files. All proofs are in a folder with some sharpening, noise reduction, some contrast boost and our signature black border. These can be printed off of the CD at 4x6 size and they print nice, but again, proof quality. Then in a separate folder they get those images we have termed artistic, which have several enhancements done to them from removing imperfections of the face/skin, softening, some actions, b&w, sepia, etc. These are ready for print and they are full resolution files. The 3rd and last folder contains the remaining full resolution files with color correction, sharpening, and contrast boost, but no retouching or actions. I don't advertise this, but if someone gets to the last month and they want the images, I sell them for 50% off of the normal price of $500.

I figure that after 3 years, either I have made all the profit I am going to make, and having the images are just adding storage cost for me, so I am happy to let them go. Besides, I would want to keep those files if they were of me and/or my family.

My $.02