[Tricia]

Okay, so we just put a Brian Adams song on our site w/out permission. Does anyone know the legality of this. How do I go about getting permission to use a song on our site? Also, does anyone know of anywhere online where you can find uncopyrighted music to use for stuff?

Or how bout just good slideshow music. Some of my favorites for slideshows are anything off of the "Day Without Rain" album by Enya. I LOVE anything by Jim Brickman (pianist), and we've been playing Jack Johnson's "Better Together" off of the "In Between Dreams" album,

[davidjay]

We're gonna have some royalty free music available soon! Hold out because we have some good stuff comin!

[ThomasAlan]

Can't Wait DJ

[JasonAng]

this is an issue I have been going back and forth with as I move forward with the launch of our new site. I have looked everywhere and there are many different opinions on the matter. DJ, when do you see your roality free section coming on?

The issue is that if you contact a music company I would be surprised if you received a response. Some will put links on the site so that you can buy the song so that the artist has a way of making a profit as well. Is this enough to cover our end?

I read an article yeterday that used a retail store as an example. Many will play a CD that they brought in to work and play it for the cust. to hear. Yet no one would second guess this. Are our photography websites similar to a "retail" environment in that the music is played for potential clients. Many retail chains will only play a certain type of music as it has been shown to create an upbeat buying mood. Many will argue that this could assist in the viewing of the images and aid in booking clients.

My other side of thinking is that if I saw my images on a CD cover at Best Buy that, as cool as it is, I would be a bit upset if I was not asked....

So I have no idea where I am at....

[judy white]

i am in the wedding videography business and we have learned it is definately a copyright issue when you use music off of a cd that you didn't pay the rights to use. the piano brothers have some nice pieces you can purchase and then put on your web site. i request all music from my clients on an original cd. i think that as long as they made the purchase the artists is still making money. the wedding videos are for private home use.
it's still a toss up but if i were to put music on a web site i would have to use some that i had a license for.
good luck,
judy

[Adam Squier]

JasonAng, on September 11 2005, 11:40 AM, said:

I read an article yeterday that used a retail store as an example. Many will play a CD that they brought in to work and play it for the cust. to hear. Yet no one would second guess this. Are our photography websites similar to a "retail" environment in that the music is played for potential clients. Many retail chains will only play a certain type of music as it has been shown to create an upbeat buying mood. Many will argue that this could assist in the viewing of the images and aid in booking clients.

[I'll preface this by writing that I'm not a Lawyer, and I even try to avoid them if I can. This is how it's been explained to me.]

This, too, is not legal. Neither is playing the radio (broadcast) in a retail shop where customers can hear it. This is the reason Muzak is in business. You pay for Muzak (or another pay-for-music company) and in the cost is the license to ASCAP, BMI, and a few others. This also applies to playing background music during a portrait session. Now, many retail stores do, in fact, pay the royalties. so do dance studios.

The short of it is that unless you pay royalties to ASCAP and BMI (and the others), you cannot use commercial music to "sell" (or enhance) your product. Now, with that said, most folks could (and do) get away with it. It's just whether you can live with yourself for not "playing by the rules."

Yes, the DJs at the weddings pay the royalties (or, at least, they're supposed to).

I find it strange that in a business that relies on usage rights and licenses, photographers often think nothing of using commercial music in their product. Obviously, everyone here thinks twice about it, and whatever decision you come up with is what you do.

[JasonAng]

That is the direction I am heading. Unless I start hanging out with Dave Mathews I do not see me using any song for our site that is not roality free. As an artist I think that it is right thing to do, however the odds of getting caught are slim. I do think that at some point BMI and other companies will begin to take notice as more and more photogs use various artists with out written permission. At that point that may start looking to this industry for law suits. I think that those who take additional steps, such as allowing the viewer to purchace a song or album from itunes or amazon will fair much better as it shows good faith.

[danwatkins]

Though I don't have music on my web-site yet, I have used royalty free music from "The Music Bakery" for slideshows and videography. "Royalty free" is not to be confused with "totally free," but the Music Bakery has some of their legacy discs starting out at $69. As soon as I have my flash site done I'll probably use something from the Music Bakery's collection.

Their URL is www.musicbakery.com

DJ -- I do look forward to seeing RF music options on OSP.

[bosdanny]

Yes, I would assert the ill-legality of this whole thing. It IS illegal for anyone to use music on the web (or for just about any other medium) without paying royalties for it. Hence "royalty-free" music. Even to put a link to buy the artists music is not enough. You are still playing their music without paying for it. There are "streaming fees" for online music used with permission from an artist....where the music was not purchased as "royalty-free" These can be as much as .08 Cents a pop (for each click on your site)...which would get really pricey!
For more info check out harryfox.com
For a healthy alternative...I'll write and record (and sell you) royalty-free music exclusively for your use and written specifically for website.

Dan

[davidjay]

Here is another list of things that are illegal in this country:

-----------------------------

Arizona
In Tucson, it is illegal for women to wear pants.
In Globe, it is illegal to play cards in the street with a Native American.
In Glendale, it is illegal to drive a car in reverse.
In Nogales, it is illegal to wear suspenders.

New Mexico
In Raton, it is illegal for a woman to ride horseback down a public street with a kimono on.
The Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary is banned in Carlsbad.
wearing a hat to a party where dancing is taking place.
It is illegal to lie down and fall asleep with your shoes on.
It is illegal to serve beer and pretzels at the same time in any bar, club, or restaurant.

Oklahoma
People who make ugly faces at dogs may be fined and/or jailed.
In Schuster, it is illegal for a woman to gamble while wearing a towel.

Texas
It is illegal for children to have unusual haircuts.
A recently passed anti-crime laws requires criminals to give their victims 24 hours notice, either orally or in writing, and explain to the nature of the crime about to be committed.
It is illegal to milk another person's cow.
In El Paso, churches, hotels, halls of assembly, stores, markets, banking rooms, railroad depots, and saloons are required to have spittoons on hand.
In Houston, it is illegal to sell Limburger cheese on Sunday.
The entire Encyclopedia Britannica is banned in Texas because it contains a formula for making beer at home.
------------------------------------------

My opinion is that we are NOT hurting the artists or the label by using a small portion of one song on the web. We are actually helping them! There is a HUGE difference between what we're doing and what the punks on Kazaa, Limewire or other file sharing programs are doing. They are distributing the music which does hurt the artists and the labels and is morally wrong.

I heard somebody else make the analogy of a coffee shop playing artists music to enhance their customers experience and all though it's not a perfectly parallel example I think we do need to realize that there is a difference between people helping promote the artist and people hurting the artist.

Hey Dan, how would you feel if I put a small piece of one of your songs up on my site as well as purchasing information and guaranteed you that 1000+ people per week would hear your music and some of them would purchase it and I wouldn't charge you anything for that publicity? It's a little different way of thinking about it but I think if these labels are smart they'll see that we're actually helping them.

Dan's music is great and you can check it out at TrueToneProductions.com or on a bunch of other photographers sites who have already had great success using him.

[Fletcher]

One more for the list DJ started....

In my hickville hometown of Klamath Falls in Southern Oregon, it's illegal to kick the heads off of snakes. Since that's outlawed we turned to cowtipping for fun in high school. (dare I admit these things?)

Kevin

[Nathan Holritz]

DJ, interesting perspective - definitely has me thinking!

What would you say, though, if one of your clients was smart enough to ask you why you could use someone else's copyrighted material in your business venture (i.e. you are ultimately making money with the music), but they couldn't use your images as they wanted?

We want our clientele to respect (and pay) for our work, so I think it would only be fair to do the same for other artists out there!

No harm meant, just a thought....

[amber holritz]

(Because I know you care, in North Carolina, it's illegal to have sex on the floor )

I like the coffee shop example, but I wonder if our clients could say the same thing... i.e. I just had this image scanned and used for our invitation, program, t-shirt, whatever.... because I knew you'd love the free advertising.
Would that be okay with you??? Again, just surmising...

[Nathan Holritz]

By the way, www.musicbakery.com is a good site to go to - we actually are using one of their songs now on our website!

I am definitely looking forward to royalty-free music on OSP, as MusicBakery doesn't have a lot of "cool" music....

B)

[davidjay]

Nikon Geek, on September 15 2005, 06:53 AM, said:

What would you say, though, if one of your clients was smart enough to ask you why you could use someone else's copyrighted material in your business venture (i.e. you are ultimately making money with the music), but they couldn't use your images as they wanted? 

We want our clientele to respect (and pay) for our work, so I think it would only be fair to do the same for other artists out there! 

I love these debates - so fun! If somebody wants to put low res copies of my work on a website along with purchasing information and can guarantee me that my pictures are going to be seen by 1000's of people every month and purchased by some of those without me having to do anything I would take them to dinner! Especially if they're cute!

nikon geekette, on September 15 2005, 07:38 AM, said:

(Because I know you care, in North Carolina, it's illegal to have sex on the floor  )

Bummer! I won't live there after I get married!

nikon geekette, on September 15 2005, 07:38 AM, said:

I like the coffee shop example, but I wonder if our clients could say the same thing... i.e. I just had this image scanned and used for our invitation, program, t-shirt, whatever.... because I knew you'd love the free advertising.
Would that be okay with you??? Again, just surmising...

Actually... ... Nathan...do you remember the wedding you shot with me...what was the first thing the couple showed us on the wedding day - their program! 200+ prints of my picture...it happens every week with no photo credit or anything....it actually happens more than that because most of my couples send out Save the Date cards and wedding invitations with my pictures in them.

I had one bride who sent me a digital copy of her Save the Date card and it had a photo credit on the front and I told her to remove it b/c it looked tacky to have my name on the front of her wedding card. I do love the free advertising even if they're not putting my name on stuff and being cool with your couples goes a long way!

[Tim Halberg]

Just to pipe in with my own 2 cents.

I just created a new blog and there are TONS of people hitting this blog each day now (I believe more than 2,000 unique hits yesterday alone) and I've had several people comment and email me saying they would like to use the pictures for the background on their computer and possibly to hang on their wall in their house. They were wondering if I'd be upset if this happened. My quick and immediate reply was that I would be humbled that they would want to do this, and that of course they could use them for that stuff no problem.

To me, it's flattering, and as DJ has mentioned, great exposure. Now they tell all of their friends about me and my blog. My blog will soon have a link to a pictage event with all of these pictures in their full-quality for sale, and my blog also has a link to my website.

Since all these people started visiting my blog I have already run out of bandwidth on my website/server because of how much traffic it has generated for me. I welcome these people to use my pictures, I think it's awesome, and I also know that there will be a group of people in there who will be interested in paying full-price to buy my pictures.

There will always be those who will "steal" your pictures. Now it's our job to think of ways to offer them something with enough value to curb the stealing toward purchases or exposure in our favor....

[Nathan Holritz]

Tim Halberg, on September 15 2005, 02:14 PM, said:

There will always be those who will "steal" your pictures. Now it's our job to think of ways to offer them something with enough value to curb the stealing toward purchases or exposure in our favor....

Love that Tim!!! Great stuff!

[amber holritz]

Posts are dissappearing on this thread Dan just had some great points posted up... and they are totally gone

[bosdanny]

davidjay, on September 15 2005, 09:53 AM, said:

I love these debates - so fun! If somebody wants to put low res copies of my work on a website along with purchasing information and can guarantee me that my pictures are going to be seen by 1000's of people every month and purchased by some of those without me having to do anything I would take them to dinner! Especially if they're cute!

Hey, if you can guarantee people purchasing, then count me in too!


DJ...I think that's great you are generous with your advertising...and generous with your business...
but I think the music thing is different. your clients are already paying for your services. But with the music there is nothing paid...there is a HUGE portion of income to artists from music licensing. With the web being more and more a marketplace, artists (like, say, an up and coming Christian artist) will never make it unless they are properly paid for their work....and although putting a link might help facilitate this, it doesn't necessarily do the deed. (if you think a link is enough...what if people don't like your pictures (not sure that would happen too often, ha ha)...does that color whether they like the music and want to buy it? or vice versa?) You can't guarantee sales of the music you put on your site...

Every artist deserves credit for what they've done. Even if they are a rockstar and are filthy rich. they made great art (obviously, if you want to use it) and it is right that they get credit/paid for what they've done.

I don't make the laws...

I mean no harm...just want to keep the debate going!
dan

[bosdanny]

yeah...I'm editing as I go...

you people just post so fast!

ha ha.
dan